Learning Under Vets? Coaching Up?

[SBXVII]

This is a good question for which I have brought up and contemplated myself. I have come to believe it's both coaching and vetrans that get the job done. I keep telling myself that it's the position coach's job (as in Hixon) to teach/develope, but I think it's probably more his job to teach fundamentals for which I get blasted about how players should already have the fundamentals or they would not have made it to the pros. I believe this to be a false statement. A prime example would be Robert Hensons interview where he keeps stating the TE coach is teaching him fundamentals all the time which he did not get in college. I also see the older vets a lot of the time coaching the younger players on the side lines after a play went sour on their route running or how to shed the blocker or how to lose the defensive player.

So I have come to believe it's a two part system but I am still concerned with our WR coach and the lack of developement. If all the team brings in is lemons then you make lemon juice. It seems the team brings in players and they are cut come regular season and we have no one new. Last yr was a nice change but again who's job was it to get Thomas in shape and ready to play? Who's job was it to make sure he learned the plays and routes? ultimatly Thomas's but I would think the positions coach would have taken special interest in getting the player to learn the offense even if it meant quizing him everyday on plays.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Warren Sapp hit the nail on the head on this issue. This isn't just an NFL problem, it's everywhere.

Derrick Brooks, Warren Sapp, Vince Young in Monday Morning QB - Peter King - SI.com

From the article:
"I'll tell you the real reason,'' his friend Warren Sapp said over the weekend. "Because it's not the same for the veterans anymore. The NFL doesn't need us. In this NFL, the old vets don't factor in. The kids don't listen to nobody. Nobody! My last year in Oakland, I'd try to talk to some of the kids. Tommy Kelly, Terdell Sands. But they had no interest. I thought the ghosts in that building were so valuable, but none of the young guys cared. Once in a while, one of the old legends would come in the building, or make a trip. Jack Tatum would be around, and I'd say, 'You know who that dude is? You know how he played?' And the kids would be like, 'Nah, I don't care.'
"The game's different now. Look at Vince Young. Why wouldn't he listen to Kerry Collins? I'm sure Vince thinks, 'Nobody's been through what I'm going through. Nobody's been through my kind of pressure.' Are you kidding me! Kerry Collins, fifth pick in the draft, has all the ups and downs, gets benched, makes those racist comments, has the alcohol problems, moves from team to team, comes back, has success ... Vince Young should suck up all the knowledge Kerry Collins has to offer! There's no better role model for him.''

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Warren Sapp hit the nail on the head on this issue. This isn't just an NFL problem, it's everywhere.

Derrick Brooks, Warren Sapp, Vince Young in Monday Morning QB - Peter King - SI.com

From the article:
"I'll tell you the real reason,'' his friend Warren Sapp said over the weekend. "Because it's not the same for the veterans anymore. The NFL doesn't need us. In this NFL, the old vets don't factor in. The kids don't listen to nobody. Nobody! My last year in Oakland, I'd try to talk to some of the kids. Tommy Kelly, Terdell Sands. But they had no interest. I thought the ghosts in that building were so valuable, but none of the young guys cared. Once in a while, one of the old legends would come in the building, or make a trip. Jack Tatum would be around, and I'd say, 'You know who that dude is? You know how he played?' And the kids would be like, 'Nah, I don't care.'
"The game's different now. Look at Vince Young. Why wouldn't he listen to Kerry Collins? I'm sure Vince thinks, 'Nobody's been through what I'm going through. Nobody's been through my kind of pressure.' Are you kidding me! Kerry Collins, fifth pick in the draft, has all the ups and downs, gets benched, makes those racist comments, has the alcohol problems, moves from team to team, comes back, has success ... Vince Young should suck up all the knowledge Kerry Collins has to offer! There's no better role model for him.''

Saap is right on the money. Young should be soaking up all the knowledge he can from Collins. Instead he cries to the media about wanting his job back and if he can't get it then trade me. Excuse my language... but what a ****ing baby!!!! Does Vince Young realize that he has ZERO value in the NFL as a starter??? His best chance to become a starter again is w/ Tenn. He needs to suck up his pride, live at the Tenn facility and learn how to play QB instead of talking about it. He's got the poster boy for someone that's turned around an NFL career sitting right in front of him and he doesn't try to take advantage of it. What a dumb ass.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

Saap is right on the money. Young should be soaking up all the knowledge he can from Collins. Instead he cries to the media about wanting his job back and if he can't get it then trade me. Excuse my language... but what a ****ing baby!!!! Does Vince Young realize that he has ZERO value in the NFL as a starter??? His best chance to become a starter again is w/ Tenn. He needs to suck up his pride, live at the Tenn facility and learn how to play QB instead of talking about it. He's got the poster boy for someone that's turned around an NFL career sitting right in front of him and he doesn't try to take advantage of it. What a dumb ass.

Has Collins made himself available to Young? I think back to Tony Banks, I think it was him, who I remember once said one of his biggest regrets was the way he acted and treated other quarterbacks on the team, especially younger guys. He said he purposely distanced himself because he was so possessive about his job. But that he watched the way Dilfer handled himself on the team and wishes he had been more like him. Willing to teach and be a part of the team.

But anyway, nice thread. I think it's really about, as Paintrain mentioned, what veterans can teach rookies and younger players about life as an NFL player not so much how to play the game. I think veterans can definitely teach younger players a lot but they have to be willing, and the younger guys have to be willing to learn.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Has Collins made himself available to Young?

Not that Peter King hasn't been wrong before, but King states in the article: "I have heard that Collins went out of his way last year to try to help Young when the struggling quarterback was having his quasi-breakdown. Young had no interest."

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Not that Peter King hasn't been wrong before, but King states in the article: "I have heard that Collins went out of his way last year to try to help Young when the struggling quarterback was having his quasi-breakdown. Young had no interest."

Well then yeah, that's all on Young then.

Renaldo Wynn sort of addressed this issue in our chat with him a couple of years back.


WP: You’re often called a “locker room leader” And I know you like to take your teammates out to get to know them outside of football. Is this a role you naturally took upon yourself or, as a veteran, were you asked to fill this role?

RW: I just have a compassion for my teammates; I think this something natural that if they want me to find things out; I’ll do it. I want to see things through, see them be happy, especially the young guys that’s why this is my 6th year being a rep for my team, your teammates vote you, and they know that you have a moral conscious. I’ll do what’s right despite interests. Going to tell them what I feel is right and what’s in their best interest. You rep the players. Rep for the players and the rights of the player.

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Well then yeah, that's all on Young then.

Renaldo Wynn sort of addressed this issue in our chat with him a couple of years back.


WP: You’re often called a “locker room leader” And I know you like to take your teammates out to get to know them outside of football. Is this a role you naturally took upon yourself or, as a veteran, were you asked to fill this role?

RW: I just have a compassion for my teammates; I think this something natural that if they want me to find things out; I’ll do it. I want to see things through, see them be happy, especially the young guys that’s why this is my 6th year being a rep for my team, your teammates vote you, and they know that you have a moral conscious. I’ll do what’s right despite interests. Going to tell them what I feel is right and what’s in their best interest. You rep the players. Rep for the players and the rights of the player.

The Reputable Wynn. LOL.

[an23dy]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Warren Sapp hit the nail on the head on this issue. This isn't just an NFL problem, it's everywhere.

Derrick Brooks, Warren Sapp, Vince Young in Monday Morning QB - Peter King - SI.com

From the article:
"I'll tell you the real reason,'' his friend Warren Sapp said over the weekend. "Because it's not the same for the veterans anymore. The NFL doesn't need us. In this NFL, the old vets don't factor in. The kids don't listen to nobody. Nobody! My last year in Oakland, I'd try to talk to some of the kids. Tommy Kelly, Terdell Sands. But they had no interest. I thought the ghosts in that building were so valuable, but none of the young guys cared. Once in a while, one of the old legends would come in the building, or make a trip. Jack Tatum would be around, and I'd say, 'You know who that dude is? You know how he played?' And the kids would be like, 'Nah, I don't care.'
"The game's different now. Look at Vince Young. Why wouldn't he listen to Kerry Collins? I'm sure Vince thinks, 'Nobody's been through what I'm going through. Nobody's been through my kind of pressure.' Are you kidding me! Kerry Collins, fifth pick in the draft, has all the ups and downs, gets benched, makes those racist comments, has the alcohol problems, moves from team to team, comes back, has success ... Vince Young should suck up all the knowledge Kerry Collins has to offer! There's no better role model for him.''

There's a distance between young guys and vets, but if a guy isn't going to listen to another player he's not going to take much stock in what a coach is going to say either. I think it's more of a player thing than related to veterans vs. coaches. I think you learn from a veteran a completely different set of information than from a coach. The coach can give you the knowledge and how it fits into the scheme and all that, but a veteran can tell you how to apply it and what you need to do to be successful. There's a reason why these guys have been in the league for 10 years, they know how to play the game.

My guesses for Redskins veterans that are ineffective or unwilling to mentor other players (completely speculative and just based on the media).
-Santana Moss - no recievers have developed here lately and I've never heard the young guys talk about how Moss has helped them
-Clinton Portis - don't hear anything about his leadership or mentoring, I hear about him working out a lot on his own, and he's always worried about his carries
-Fred Smoot - he seems real talkative but in a trash talking way, don't know if he has a serious side where he teaches guys, also what he said about Kevin Barnes makes me think he's more concerned about his spot

[MTK]

Originally Posted by an23dy

Santana Moss - no recievers have developed here lately and I've never heard the young guys talk about how Moss has helped them

You must not be listening too closely because Moss gets mentioned all the time by guys like Thomas as being a mentor for him.

exhibit A:

Thomas was happy to discuss Moss, whom he called his mentor.

"He's my big brother," Thomas said. "I've got to show him some love here because he's shown me the ropes."

link

[an23dy]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

You must not be listening too closely because Moss gets mentioned all the time by guys like Thomas as being a mentor for him.

exhibit A:

Just me speculating, it's probably more of a media thing, how Moss is seen as a guy that flashes gang signs, gets a celebration penalty here and there, is from the U, he's still kinda young, and all that. I just don't hear Moss and mentor that often. I didn't read that article. I looked at Devin Thomas' blog, didn't see anything. Hadn't heard from Malcolm Kelly. Jerry Rice gets mentioned a lot as a mentor, from DeSean Jackson, Steve Smith, and other guys, you hear a lot about Hines Ward mentoring guys. I've heard Marvin Harrison, Derrick Mason, Torry Holt, Joe Horn, but I just don't put Moss in that category. I think Kelly and Thomas were a lot more raw than I thought they should have been. They seemed very unpolished in their route running and Thomas had more penalties than he should have for how little he played. Somebody has to be at fault, maybe they're not that good, maybe it's because they're rookies, or the injuries, or the WR coach.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

....I think it's probably more his job to teach fundamentals for which I get blasted about how players should already have the fundamentals or they would not have made it to the pros. I believe this to be a false statement......

I agree with you, even at the DI college level some of the coaches aren't teaching good fundamentals. They're more worried about scheme (and some don't do that well) & recruiting. Plus the NFL is a different game from college anyway.