Cousins Value Skyrockets,Jets Fans Want Him!!

[KLHJ2]

Originally Posted by irish

The Jets need a new Head Coach more than anything else.

Can you provide tangible evidence to support this claim?

[donofriose]

Originally Posted by Angry

Can you provide tangible evidence to support this claim?

Rex Ryan inherited a team that went 9-7 the year before him, and goes 9-7 again but just got lucky that he made the playoffs. He has no leadership in that locker room, his team looks completely lost, for some reason the drafts before he was there were solid even with the GM they had (with the exception Gholston of course) and then when he arrives they start picking players like... Mark Sanchez. A bunch of questionable off season moves like giving Scott 48 million when he was on the decline, looked good a couple of games and everyone thought he was a beast. This year he is showing that one season is not worth what they signed him for.

Rex Ryan is a defensive coordinator he has shown lack of leadership in that locker room, he does not evaluate talent well at all seeing as all his good players were there before he arrived, he inherited a good/talented team and then messed it up and you can see just by watching the jets they are leaderless.

[SkinzWin]

Originally Posted by donofriose

Rex Ryan inherited a team that went 9-7 the year before him, and goes 9-7 again but just got lucky that he made the playoffs. He has no leadership in that locker room, his team looks completely lost, for some reason the drafts before he was there were solid even with the GM they had (with the exception Gholston of course) and then when he arrives they start picking players like... Mark Sanchez. A bunch of questionable off season moves like giving Scott 48 million when he was on the decline, looked good a couple of games and everyone thought he was a beast. This year he is showing that one season is not worth what they signed him for.

Rex Ryan is a defensive coordinator he has shown lack of leadership in that locker room, he does not evaluate talent well at all seeing as all his good players were there before he arrived, he inherited a good/talented team and then messed it up and you can see just by watching the jets they are leaderless.

Boil it down to the simple fact that the Jets have no ability to select quality, or even mediocre players in the draft or via Free Agency. They have NO ONE around Sanchez. Defense is average, no run game, no receivers to throw to. NOTHING. The GM and Rexy's personnel selections ain't so sexy. Poopoo talent=bye bye job.

[donofriose]

Originally Posted by SkinzWin

Boil it down to the simple fact that the Jets have no ability to select quality, or even mediocre players in the draft or via Free Agency. They have NO ONE around Sanchez. Defense is average, no run game, no receivers to throw to. NOTHING. The GM and Rexy's personnel selections ain't so sexy. Poopoo talent=bye bye job.

Exactly, all their quality players were selected during the Eric Mangini era, now the question is will anyone want to trade for Sanchez.

[SkinzWin]

Originally Posted by donofriose

Exactly, all their quality players were selected during the Eric Mangini era, now the question is will anyone want to trade for Sanchez.

Someone will be stupid enough to. Arizona, Buffalo, Kansas City, maybe even Jacksonville, Oakland or San Diego (If Rivers is traded).

[skinsnut]

This is great....I can't remember the last time anyone was discussing trading for ANY Redskin player within the last 10 years. Can you?

Keep Cousins...I like other fans being Jealous of our players!

[irish]

Originally Posted by donofriose

Rex Ryan inherited a team that went 9-7 the year before him, and goes 9-7 again but just got lucky that he made the playoffs. He has no leadership in that locker room, his team looks completely lost, for some reason the drafts before he was there were solid even with the GM they had (with the exception Gholston of course) and then when he arrives they start picking players like... Mark Sanchez. A bunch of questionable off season moves like giving Scott 48 million when he was on the decline, looked good a couple of games and everyone thought he was a beast. This year he is showing that one season is not worth what they signed him for.

Rex Ryan is a defensive coordinator he has shown lack of leadership in that locker room, he does not evaluate talent well at all seeing as all his good players were there before he arrived, he inherited a good/talented team and then messed it up and you can see just by watching the jets they are leaderless.

^^This. Plus watching Hard Knocks with all Rex's yelling and screaming is not how a strong leader and in-control coach acts. It wont matter who the Jets bring in at QB or any other position, as long as Rex is HC that team is going nowhere.

[KLHJ2]

Originally Posted by donofriose

Rex Ryan inherited a team that went 9-7 the year before him, and goes 9-7 again but just got lucky that he made the playoffs. He has no leadership in that locker room, his team looks completely lost, for some reason the drafts before he was there were solid even with the GM they had (with the exception Gholston of course) and then when he arrives they start picking players like... Mark Sanchez. A bunch of questionable off season moves like giving Scott 48 million when he was on the decline, looked good a couple of games and everyone thought he was a beast. This year he is showing that one season is not worth what they signed him for.

Rex Ryan is a defensive coordinator he has shown lack of leadership in that locker room, he does not evaluate talent well at all seeing as all his good players were there before he arrived, he inherited a good/talented team and then messed it up and you can see just by watching the jets they are leaderless.

OK let's start with a definition of Tangible evidencs. "Evidence that can be supported by numbers" otherwise known as "Tangible Data" (my paraphrase). You started off well by using the teams 9-7 record the year before he took over and then provided his 9-7 record the next year. You then did state that he made the playoffs. Here is all of the tangible evidence that you left out.

Mangini - 9-7 - 3rd in AFC East - Missed Playoffs
Ryan - 9-7 - 2nd in AFC East - Lost AFC Championship Game
Ryan - 11-5 - 2nd in AFC East - Lost AFC Championship Game
Ryan - 8-8 - 2nd in AFC East - Missed Playoffs
Ryan - 6-8 - 2nd in AFC East - Missed playoffs (out of contention week 16)

Ryan is 34-28 (.548) in the regular season and 4-2 in the post season (.667)

He has made the playoffs 2 out of 4 seasons


Let's put that into a comparison

Coughlin w Giants 82-60 (.577) in the regular season and 8-3 in the post season (.727)

He has made the playoffs 5 out of 9 seasons.

The numbers are comparable. Rex may not have Coughlin's 2 Superbowl's but he has very similar numbers.

The intangibles as you stated would be the bad personnel decisions and the lack of maturity in the Lockerroom etc.

You state that he has shown lack of leadership in the locker room. That's debatable. Some coaches want the locker room to run wild. It doesn't mean that he is not in charge, he want's them a little out of control. Examples include Jimmy Johnson at the University of Miami and the Oakland Raiders with Al Davis.

You said that he doesn't evaluate talent well at all. Well, I will not agree or disagree with this one. I will say that the last time I checked however, each NFL team has it's own scouts, talent evaluators, and GM. It's their job to evaluate talent. The HC just chips in, but it is not ultimately his job.

You say that they are leaderless, I would say that offensively you would be correct; Mark Sanchez is not a good leader. On defense they have plently of leadership and they play pretty good. That's not a lack of leadership from coaching it's a lack of leadership from the player. You cannot make someone be a leader. Trust me.

You state that he inherited a good team. Brett Favre couldn't make that offense good. He led the Vikings to the playoffs the very next season.

I think that if you give Rex a decent and mature QB, then the Jets can be a force in the NFL.

[SkinzWin]

Originally Posted by Angry

OK let's start with a definition of Tangible evidencs. "Evidence that can be supported by numbers" otherwise known as "Tangible Data" (my paraphrase). You started off well by using the teams 9-7 record the year before he took over and then provided his 9-7 record the next year. You then did state that he made the playoffs. Here is all of the tangible evidence that you left out.

Mangini - 9-7 - 3rd in AFC East - Missed Playoffs
Ryan - 9-7 - 2nd in AFC East - Lost AFC Championship Game
Ryan - 11-5 - 2nd in AFC East - Lost AFC Championship Game
Ryan - 8-8 - 2nd in AFC East - Missed Playoffs
Ryan - 6-8 - 2nd in AFC East - Missed playoffs (out of contention week 16)

Ryan is 34-28 (.548) in the regular season and 4-2 in the post season (.667)

He has made the playoffs 2 out of 4 seasons


Let's put that into a comparison

Coughlin w Giants 82-60 (.577) in the regular season and 8-3 in the post season (.727)

He has made the playoffs 5 out of 9 seasons.

The numbers are comparable. Rex may not have Coughlin's 2 Superbowl's but he has very similar numbers.

The intangibles as you stated would be the bad personnel decisions and the lack of maturity in the Lockerroom etc.

You state that he has shown lack of leadership in the locker room. That's debatable. Some coaches want the locker room to run wild. It doesn't mean that he is not in charge, he want's them a little out of control. Examples include Jimmy Johnson at the University of Miami and the Oakland Raiders with Al Davis.

You said that he doesn't evaluate talent well at all. Well, I will not agree or disagree with this one. I will say that the last time I checked however, each NFL team has it's own scouts, talent evaluators, and GM. It's their job to evaluate talent. The HC just chips in, but it is not ultimately his job.

You say that they are leaderless, I would say that offensively you would be correct; Mark Sanchez is not a good leader. On defense they have plently of leadership and they play pretty good. That's not a lack of leadership from coaching it's a lack of leadership from the player. You cannot make someone be a leader. Trust me.

You state that he inherited a good team. Brett Favre couldn't make that offense good. He led the Vikings to the playoffs the very next season.

I think that if you give Rex a decent and mature QB, then the Jets can be a force in the NFL.

Thats completely bAss ackwards. They did such a good job Rex's first two years because they had a butt load of talent. A top 5 defense. A great running game. Competent wide receivers. All Sanchez had to do was game manage, make a few throws and the run game and the defense won the games. Typical AFC North style football.

But Rex and their GM are obviously horrible at finding talent and managing a roster. They have done so poorly not because Sanchez has gotten worse, but because the team around him has gotten worse. Sanchez is Alex Smith to a tee. He can manage the game for you, make some throws, but you have to put a great team around them to get deep into the playoffs. They aren't going to put the team on their backs and win games for you like the Brady's and the Mannings' do.

Look at their roster:
Chaz Schilens
Jeremy Kerley
Braylon Edwards
Konrad Reuland
Jeff Cumberland
Shonn Greene
Ronnie Hillman

Sanchez has no one. Instead of filling these needs they don't get any help for the WR corps, sign TIM TEBOW who they won't even start and barely play, the defense signed high priced, aging players who are not performing to their contracts. It's a cut and dry Vinny Cerrato team.

Your argument is not valid because you completely ignore the main issue with the team. Personnel. Every team is different as far as how involved the head coach is with personnel decisions, but they have some input. Most of it goes on the GM, but he needs to go too. Rex needs to go because his rah rah style only works when you have talent and are winning. When you don't have the talent and are losing you get malcontents in the locker room who start outing each other anonymously and making for a bad team environment because you have assembled a team of high paid free agents, not a cohesive team.

Reference: See Cerrato, Vinny and Redskins, The Washington 1999-2010

[KLHJ2]

Originally Posted by SkinzWin

Thats completely bAss ackwards. They did such a good job Rex's first two years because they had a butt load of talent. A top 5 defense. A great running game. Competent wide receivers. All Sanchez had to do was game manage, make a few throws and the run game and the defense won the games. Typical AFC North style football.

But Rex and their GM are obviously horrible at finding talent and managing a roster. They have done so poorly not because Sanchez has gotten worse, but because the team around him has gotten worse. Sanchez is Alex Smith to a tee. He can manage the game for you, make some throws, but you have to put a great team around them to get deep into the playoffs. They aren't going to put the team on their backs and win games for you like the Brady's and the Mannings' do.

Look at their roster:
Chaz Schilens
Jeremy Kerley
Braylon Edwards
Konrad Reuland
Jeff Cumberland
Shonn Greene
Ronnie Hillman

Sanchez has no one. Instead of filling these needs they don't get any help for the WR corps, sign TIM TEBOW who they won't even start and barely play, the defense signed high priced, aging players who are not performing to their contracts. It's a cut and dry Vinny Cerrato team.

Your argument is not valid because you completely ignore the main issue with the team. Personnel. Every team is different as far as how involved the head coach is with personnel decisions, but they have some input. Most of it goes on the GM, but he needs to go too. Rex needs to go because his rah rah style only works when you have talent and are winning. When you don't have the talent and are losing you get malcontents in the locker room who start outing each other anonymously and making for a bad team environment because you have assembled a team of high paid free agents, not a cohesive team.

Reference: See Cerrato, Vinny and Redskins, The Washington 1999-2010

Nowhere have I ignored the personnel issue. I am stating that it does not fall on the coach. You referenced Cerato, Vinny and the Redskins. Even you did not state Gibbs, Zorn or any plethora of coaches during that term. It is not a coaching problem. He is working with what he has been given. You only mentioned the backs and recievers that are not injured. Did Rex go all Tanya Harding on his starters?

Rex Ryan has a winning record after 4 season and has been to the AFC Championship game twice. His numbers do not warrant a coaching change for at least another season. I agree that there are personnel issues and that his team seems to be on the decline, but I believe that he can turn it around with an equally talented, but more mature QB.

The problem is the GM and the QB, not Rex. I am at an impasse and will not respond on this subject any further.

[SkinzWin]

Originally Posted by Angry

Nowhere have I ignored the personnel issue. I am stating that it does not fall on the coach. You referenced Cerato, Vinny and the Redskins. Even you did not state Gibbs, Zorn or any plethora of coaches during that term. It is not a coaching problem. He is working with what he has been given. You only mentioned the backs and recievers that are not injured. Did Rex go all Tanya Harding on his starters?

Rex Ryan has a winning record after 4 season and has been to the AFC Championship game twice. His numbers do not warrant a coaching change for at least another season. I agree that there are personnel issues and that his team seems to be on the decline, but I believe that he can turn it around with an equally talented, but more mature QB.

The problem is the GM and the QB, not Rex. I am at an impasse and will not respond on this subject any further.

But I will. Much of the problem is the GM. Rex did great with his coaching style at the beginning. But like I said, reckless only works if you are winning. When you start to lose those "loose cannons" cause locker room issues. Rex even was quoted as saying he didn't have a great feel for his own locker room. You can't tell me that his approach has been effective the last two years. His three ring quarterback circus has been a joke.

Tebow been active all year.
McElroy been inactive.
Sanchez plays bad. (again, and again, and…)
Bench Sanchez.
Tebow inactive.
McElroy plays from third string.
Sanchez back in next game.
Gets benched again.
Skip over Tebow.
McElroy starts.
Tebow wants to be cut or traded.
Sanchez trade rumors swirl, but his contract will probably keep him there next year.

[KLHJ2]

Originally Posted by SkinzWin

But I will. Much of the problem is the GM. Rex did great with his coaching style at the beginning. But like I said, reckless only works if you are winning. When you start to lose those "loose cannons" cause locker room issues. Rex even was quoted as saying he didn't have a great feel for his own locker room. You can't tell me that his approach has been effective the last two years. His three ring quarterback circus has been a joke.

Tebow been active all year.
McElroy been inactive.
Sanchez plays bad. (again, and again, and…)
Bench Sanchez.
Tebow inactive.
McElroy plays from third string.
Sanchez back in next game.
Gets benched again.
Skip over Tebow.
McElroy starts.
Tebow wants to be cut or traded.
Sanchez trade rumors swirl, but his contract will probably keep him there next year.

Dude, who are you trying to convince, me or yourself? I am not budging. Right now it seems as if the both of us are only responding in order to get the last word in. Truth be told; I don't care. It's the stinking Jets! You are this close to being the first on my ignor list. Unless your next response is "I agree to disagree" then you're there. I will allow you to get the last word, but please just agree to disagree and move on. This is admittedly probably one of this silliest arguments I have been in on this board. I frankly am ashamed of myself for letting it go this far. For the love of all that is going right for the Skins this season just let it go.

You make some valid points, but they are not enough for me to say "fire Rex!". Got it?

[donofriose]

Originally Posted by Angry

OK let's start with a definition of Tangible evidencs. "Evidence that can be supported by numbers" otherwise known as "Tangible Data" (my paraphrase). You started off well by using the teams 9-7 record the year before he took over and then provided his 9-7 record the next year. You then did state that he made the playoffs. Here is all of the tangible evidence that you left out.

Mangini - 9-7 - 3rd in AFC East - Missed Playoffs
Ryan - 9-7 - 2nd in AFC East - Lost AFC Championship Game
Ryan - 11-5 - 2nd in AFC East - Lost AFC Championship Game
Ryan - 8-8 - 2nd in AFC East - Missed Playoffs
Ryan - 6-8 - 2nd in AFC East - Missed playoffs (out of contention week 16)

Ryan is 34-28 (.548) in the regular season and 4-2 in the post season (.667)

He has made the playoffs 2 out of 4 seasons


Let's put that into a comparison

Coughlin w Giants 82-60 (.577) in the regular season and 8-3 in the post season (.727)

He has made the playoffs 5 out of 9 seasons.

The numbers are comparable. Rex may not have Coughlin's 2 Superbowl's but he has very similar numbers.

The intangibles as you stated would be the bad personnel decisions and the lack of maturity in the Lockerroom etc.

You state that he has shown lack of leadership in the locker room. That's debatable. Some coaches want the locker room to run wild. It doesn't mean that he is not in charge, he want's them a little out of control. Examples include Jimmy Johnson at the University of Miami and the Oakland Raiders with Al Davis.

You said that he doesn't evaluate talent well at all. Well, I will not agree or disagree with this one. I will say that the last time I checked however, each NFL team has it's own scouts, talent evaluators, and GM. It's their job to evaluate talent. The HC just chips in, but it is not ultimately his job.

You say that they are leaderless, I would say that offensively you would be correct; Mark Sanchez is not a good leader. On defense they have plently of leadership and they play pretty good. That's not a lack of leadership from coaching it's a lack of leadership from the player. You cannot make someone be a leader. Trust me.

You state that he inherited a good team. Brett Favre couldn't make that offense good. He led the Vikings to the playoffs the very next season.

I think that if you give Rex a decent and mature QB, then the Jets can be a force in the NFL.

1) You can't just state Coughlin's two superbowls and act like they do not account for anything. Comparing a two-time superbowl winning coach to a coach who hasn't won anything is not a good comparison.

2) A coach who you can compare to Rex Ryan...
Norv Turner... 53-39 (.576) but has shown a decline from when he took over at San Diego, he has been to the playoffs 4-8 times with San Diego, or 50% of the time just like... Rex Ryan. Yet most people belive Norv Turner cannot be a head coach. He has similar numbers to Rex Ryan, so which one is he, is he Norv Turner or is he a coach who was a proven winner at Jacksonville and a two time superbowl winning coach with players that he drafted. Difference between Coughlin and Ryan however, one coach inherited a team that was 9-7 the year before the other inherited a team that was 4-12 and had the number one draft pick. Also one thing they always say Turner lacked... leadership.

3) Leadership is a coach's responsibility. NO coach wants the locker room to run wild, Jimmy Johnson had control of his locker room at Dallas and drafted leaders like Troy Aikman and Michael Irvin. Leadership is absolutely a coaches responsibility. If you want a team to listen to you and respect you, you have to be a leader of men, look what happened at Dallas, a player passed away and Garret showed leadership in the way he handled that situation, and now their team is in playoff contention yet again.

4) I do not think it is coincidence that once Rex Ryan took over they started making questionable off season decisions. Tannedbaum has been there since 2006 (same year Mangini got hired) and had good drafts with Mangini, then all of a sudden Ryan gets hired and he starts to look terrible. Its not just coincidence in my opinion. I don't like Tannedbaum either by the way.

5) Brett Favre was successful with that team, their offense was good, if you recall Brett Favre injured his arm the final 5 games of that season when they started 8-3 and then went 1-4 which knocked them out of the playoff race.

[KLHJ2]

Originally Posted by donofriose

1) You can't just state Coughlin's two superbowls and act like they do not account for anything. Comparing a two-time superbowl winning coach to a coach who hasn't won anything is not a good comparison.

2) A coach who you can compare to Rex Ryan...
Norv Turner... 53-39 (.576) but has shown a decline from when he took over at San Diego, he has been to the playoffs 4-8 times with San Diego, or 50% of the time just like... Rex Ryan. Yet most people belive Norv Turner cannot be a head coach. He has similar numbers to Rex Ryan, so which one is he, is he Norv Turner or is he a coach who was a proven winner at Jacksonville and a two time superbowl winning coach with players that he drafted. Difference between Coughlin and Ryan however, one coach inherited a team that was 9-7 the year before the other inherited a team that was 4-12 and had the number one draft pick. Also one thing they always say Turner lacked... leadership.

3) Leadership is a coach's responsibility. NO coach wants the locker room to run wild, Jimmy Johnson had control of his locker room at Dallas and drafted leaders like Troy Aikman and Michael Irvin. Leadership is absolutely a coaches responsibility. If you want a team to listen to you and respect you, you have to be a leader of men, look what happened at Dallas, a player passed away and Garret showed leadership in the way he handled that situation, and now their team is in playoff contention yet again.

4) I do not think it is coincidence that once Rex Ryan took over they started making questionable off season decisions. Tannedbaum has been there since 2006 (same year Mangini got hired) and had good drafts with Mangini, then all of a sudden Ryan gets hired and he starts to look terrible. Its not just coincidence in my opinion. I don't like Tannedbaum either by the way.

5) Brett Favre was successful with that team, their offense was good, if you recall Brett Favre injured his arm the final 5 games of that season when they started 8-3 and then went 1-4 which knocked them out of the playoff race.

Lat one

1) He didn't win those Superbowls until after his 5th season (They wanted to fire him too)

2) Norv Turner inherited a stacked and consistent Playoff team led by Phillip Rivers. Rex inherited a team that missed the playoffs and had no QB.

3) I think you missed the argument there. They respected the coach but he allowed them to act out. Watch ESPN's 30 for 30 "The U". Many coaches had an "Us against the world" attitude and it works.

4) The GM is responsible for his own actions.

5) Brett Favre and that team went 9-7 finished 3rd in the division and missed the playoffs.

[donofriose]

Originally Posted by Angry

Lat one

1) He didn't win those Superbowls until after his 5th season (They wanted to fire him too)

2) Norv Turner inherited a stacked and consistent Playoff team led by Phillip Rivers. Rex inherited a team that missed the playoffs and had no QB.

3) I think you missed the argument there. They respected the coach but he allowed them to act out. Watch ESPN's 30 for 30 "The U". Many coaches had an "Us against the world" attitude and it works.

4) The GM is responsible for his own actions.

5) Brett Favre and that team went 9-7 finished 3rd in the division and missed the playoffs.

1) They won a superbowl in his 4th year, not his 5th and they didn't want him fired until last year.

2) "Rex inherited a team that missed the playoffs and had no QB." And this is his fourth season and what are the Jets... A team that missed the playoffs that still has no QB. He hasn't done anything to improve the team.

3) Johnson still had control of the team. Ryan does not, that locker room was split last year because the players had lost respect for Ryan, the problem was the Ryan made it obvious that Sanchez was above the team, he hitched his wagon to Sanchez and wanted Sanchez to be a leader he was not and never will be. He made Sanchez above the team and because of this he lost the locker room which is an obvious weakness in leadership.

4) The GM is responsible, but so is the coach. I do not like either and do feel the Jets should start over in the front office and their coaching staff, but look at the players tannenbaum brought in while Mangini was the coach... Fergurson, Mangold, Leon Washington, Eric Smith, Brad Smith, Revis, D. Harris, and Keller... who has Ryan brought in with the same gm? All their impact players were brought in during the Mangini era even though it was the same GM.

5) I said they missed the playoffs but the reason they missed the playoffs is because Brett Favre got injured and they lost 4 out of their final five games after he got injured (8-3 with him healthy). I believe it was later revealed that he had a torn bicep and the league fined the Jets for it if I remember correctly.

The point is Rex Ryan deserves blame too. He is not the worst coach in the league but if he gets fired he deserves to be fired. He decided to ride with Sanchez and now it might cost him his job. And if it does he deserves to be fired for being dumb enough to ride with a QB like Sanchez.