Gun Restrictions and Your Rights

[offiss]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

Interesting, I never even thought of that point. There are a lot of criminals who use guns in crimes but who have no intention of using them. Maybe, if they thought they'd get shot at, they'd just ambush people so as to avoid the risk of a "fair" shootout.

That argument wont fly with the fact that florida was the car jack state back in the early 90's, guess what? They allowed people to not only own guns but carry them, and wham car Jackings disapeared, coincidence? I don't think so! Criminals with guns are bonified cowards, they need a swayed advantage to carry out thier crimes, when put in a situation of a even playingfield they usually will cower. Peace through strength is the only solution, so long as we have individuals who refuse to obey the law, or the rights of fellow citizens. The oblishment of guns argument is really just foolish, how much do you want to bet most who take this side also feel that marijuana should be legalized? And the argumant for the legalization would be " we will never stop people from getting it so we might as well legalize it and tax it " but somehow outalwing guns will get rid of them?

[Bushead]

Originally Posted by offiss

That argument wont fly with the fact that florida was the car jack state back in the early 90's, guess what? They allowed people to not only own guns but carry them, and wham car Jackings disapeared, coincidence? I don't think so! Criminals with guns are bonified cowards, they need a swayed advantage to carry out thier crimes, when put in a situation of a even playingfield they usually will cower. Peace through strength is the only solution, so long as we have individuals who refuse to obey the law, or the rights of fellow citizens. The oblishment of guns argument is really just foolish, how much do you want to bet most who take this side also feel that marijuana should be legalized? And the argumant for the legalization would be " we will never stop people from getting it so we might as well legalize it and tax it " but somehow outalwing guns will get rid of them?

You made an X and Y correlation. They would have to be directly related, and who knows, they could be! There are just too many factors to say that this caused that.

[TheMalcolmConnection]

Originally Posted by Bushead

Va. Shootings: What the World is Saying - Newsweek National News - MSNBC.com

As someone who is interested in International Relations, Reading this article just shows how other countries view our gun laws. Most of the stern ones come from France, no suprise there. I believe that the person from France does have a point though: people saying we need to let everyone have guns is just backwards thinking. I know too many hot headed people that don't need guns.

I'm for getting rid of them. So someone who wants your wallet might have second thoughts because you could be packing, or he might just shoot your ass and take it because he doesn't want to take that chance.

I read this quote and became severely heated:

"It is a big loss for the American people and I think that this is a message from Allah to them to stop and think of what is happening in Iraq. Thousands of Iraqis lost their sons or fathers and all of this was because of the so-called American democracy being exported to Third World countries."

[Bushead]

Originally Posted by TheMalcolmConnection

I read this quote and became severely heated:

"It is a big loss for the American people and I think that this is a message from Allah to them to stop and think of what is happening in Iraq. Thousands of Iraqis lost their sons or fathers and all of this was because of the so-called American democracy being exported to Third World countries."

All though misguided, it is very important to understand how other countries think, so we can all come to a better understanding and remove the misconceptions we have of each other.

In my opinion, its going to be VERY VERY easy for other countries to make the connection with the Iraq war, to Bush, to this event, even though they aren't that connected...or are they?

[TheMalcolmConnection]

Originally Posted by Bushead

All though misguided, it is very important to understand how other countries think, so we can all come to a better understanding and remove the misconceptions we have of each other.

In my opinion, its going to be VERY VERY easy for other countries to make the connection with the Iraq war, to Bush, to this event, even though they aren't that connected...or are they?

What makes me angry is that it seems like they think it's OK, since they too are suffering pain. That's TOTAL BS. I think that at least the majority of people here feel the pain of the Iraqi people who die in the war.

This was a LOCAL, non-government involved event and all you can say is basically: "Now you see what it feels like." **** that.

[Bushead]

Originally Posted by TheMalcolmConnection

What makes me angry is that it seems like they think it's OK, since they too are suffering pain. That's TOTAL BS. I think that at least the majority of people here feel the pain of the Iraqi people who die in the war.

This was a LOCAL, non-government involved event and all you can say is basically: "Now you see what it feels like." **** that.

Well i wouldn't take it too personally. This is going to be a generalization, but most people in the middle east get their information from the internet or from propaganda newspapers. Watch Thomas Friedman's report on the Root Causes of 9/11 with the Discovery channel, and you'll see Iraq citizens who think Americans were the ones who hijacked the plans, Al Gore is Jewish and thats why he didn't win the election, and all sorts of other odd things. Its no telling what they are reading

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Supposing, for argument's sake, that crime does spike. At some point, would it not decrease as guns age, the supply of ammo dwindles, etc.? Even if we don't reap the benefits of a relatively gun free society for another 100 years, I think it makes sense to get rid of guns.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

Supposing, for argument's sake, that crime does spike. At some point, would it not decrease as guns age, the supply of ammo dwindles, etc.? Even if we don't reap the benefits of a relatively gun free society for another 100 years, I think it makes sense to get rid of guns.

And how many helpless victims have to wait out this type of deterioration?

Do you have the right to defend yourself SSG?

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

And how many helpless victims have to wait out this type of deterioration?

Do you have the right to defend yourself SSG?

#1. I doubt that the country would become the Mad Max World that you are predicting it would be.

#2. I have the right to defend myself, but I should not have the right to possess a weapon that can kill dozens of people should I decide to flip out.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

#1. I doubt that the country would become the Mad Max World that you are predicting it would be.

#2. I have the right to defend myself, but I should not have the right to possess a weapon that can kill dozens of people should I decide to flip out.

1. You only have to look at recent events to recognize the capability of evil in the human heart. If you cannot envision a state in which the law-abiding won't be at the mercy of the lawless, then I don't know what else to say.

2. What if a dozen people mean to do you harm? Is your right of self-defense limited to the type of weapon your opponent has? i.e. they have a knife, so I can defend myself with a knife, but if they have handgun with a magazine capacity of 15 rounds, legally, I may not possess such a weapon.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Beems, do you think the readily available supply of weapons in Iraq is doing a good job of deterring crime?

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

Beems, do you think the readily available supply of weapons in Iraq is doing a good job of deterring crime?

Since the state of Iraq's government is in complete disarray and there's no semblance of a police force to adequately address the problem of crime, I'd say this is a poor comparison to use.

I will say that if guns were outlawed amongst the general public, there would still be crime, wouldn't you agree?

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

Since the state of Iraq's government is in complete disarray and there's no semblance of a police force to adequately address the problem of crime, I'd say this is a poor comparison to use.

You predict that, absent legal gun ownership, the streets of America would be unbelievably chaotic with death everywhere. As a corollary, you believe that the U.S. government is incapable of protecting the people by itself (i.e., it needs gun owners to assist). So, with regard to Iraq, I don't see how you can simply blame their ineffective government for the violence. After all, you already believe that our government is incapable of keeping us relatively safe.

Obviously, there are many other problems in Iraq (sectarian strife) that we do not have. So Iraq, of course, is not completely analogous. But, I don't think there is a single person who believes that the proliferation of weapons in Iraq has deterred criminals.

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

I will say that if guns were outlawed amongst the general public, there would still be crime, wouldn't you agree?

I certainly agree. But, I also think that gun crimes would decrease as the availability of guns decreases and their cost increases.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

You predict that, absent legal gun ownership, the streets of America would be unbelievably chaotic with death everywhere. As a corollary, you believe that the U.S. government is incapable of protecting the people by itself (i.e., it needs gun owners to assist). So, with regard to Iraq, I don't see how you can simply blame their ineffective government for the violence. After all, you already believe that our government is incapable of keeping us relatively safe.

Do I believe that the absence of an adequate police force contributes to a rise in crime in Iraq or elsewhere? Of course. Are the people of Iraq sufficiently armed to protect themselves against crimes of a domestic nature? Obviously not. Would crime disappear if there were no guns in Iraq? We both agree that would not be the case.

I never said the government is incapable of protecting its citizens against crime.

I believe it's an individual right and responsibility to protect yourself. The police cannot be everywhere all the time.

I think one of our fundamental differences SGG, is the extent of our individual rights. Our civilization recognizes these as life, liberty, and property. If you believe individuals have the right to life, liberty, and property, then you must also believe that we have the right to defend these things from the force of others who wish to do harm to us. If we are denied the ability to protect ourselves from the criminal element, if that is officially taken away from us, then we no longer have the expectation of these rights.

Now, you might say that the government is then burdened with this responsibility totally. The problem there, is that a government which is strong enough to give us everything we need, is powerful enough to take it all away. With federal protection, comes federal strings.

It's my belief that ultimately, each of us is responsible for ourselves. That goes from the very basic needs of life -- food, shelter, clothing -- to the defense of those items in the face of an armed attacker.

[offiss]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

Beems, do you think the readily available supply of weapons in Iraq is doing a good job of deterring crime?

I love these rhetorical questions, How many people were butchered and tortured under sadam? Just in case nobody told you we are at war in Iraq, this is not a functioning society as of yet, there is a difference.

I do believe the supply of weopons in Israel is detering plenty of crime, like thier total distruction at the hands of the muslim nation.


What I feel you fail to understand SGG is that you feel this world is filled for the most part with pretty swell individuals, you haven't come to the realization yet that we live in a very evil world with people and nations who are willing to die to have the privledge of killing others.


I would like to know throughout all the dictatorships in this world, N. Korea, China, Cuba, Iran, and so forth, knowing how oppresive they are, how many have a fully armed population? My guess would be none. Yet in maybe the least oppresive country in the world we are the most armed as a far as the citizenship is concerned. Coincidence? I think not!