On Blache

[SC Skins Fan]

Originally Posted by Hail to the Redskins

1) You HONESTLY want to say we just blitzed once today?

2) So when we don't play run first, great play calling, but if we play run first, and don't get any pressure, terrible play calling & our pass defense is below average. (??)

you are right, it is hard to understand your argument.

Clear as day we are top 10 in run defense and pass defense...
ANY kind of "blitz percentage" or "yards per completion" argument is definitely not understood by me... I clearly am an idiot.

Yes, I saw one blitz. Might have missed one or two, but they were not bringing all those blitzes that they used in previous weeks. Tripp might have been a larger argument (after reading back over the thread), he can speak for himself. My argument was more simple; Blache used too many blitzes that weren't working and putting unnecessary pressure on the DBs and giving the QBs easy reads. The numbers are there, 2nd (or so) in the league in blitz percentage going into this week. Today they brought four most of the time and only rushed three a bunch of the time. Good play calling since they have proven that they can't get pressure even by blitzing. McNabb struggled to find open receivers (and made some bad throws and had some key drops).

[Hail to the Redskins]

Originally Posted by SC Skins Fan

Yes, I saw one blitz. Might have missed one or two, but they were not bringing all those blitzes that they used in previous weeks. Tripp might have been a larger argument (after reading back over the thread), he can speak for himself. My argument was more simple; Blache used too many blitzes that weren't working and putting unnecessary pressure on the DBs and giving the QBs easy reads. The numbers are there, 2nd (or so) in the league in blitz percentage going into this week. Today they brought four most of the time and only rushed three a bunch of the time. Good play calling since they have proven that they can't get pressure even by blitzing. McNabb struggled to find open receivers (and made some bad throws and had some key drops).

The funny thing about you and discussing this is that I agree, I hate our blitz packages. We hardly ever are successful on blitzes. So we agree in your argument.

But... all I have been saying all along is that:
1) our offense is AWFUL
2) our defense is certainly not equally accountable for us not making the playoffs
3) Points allowed is more important than "blitz" stats or "yards per completion", etc.
4) our pass defense is NOT below average

That's all... those 4 things. Now, I used alot of statistics, etc. to try and show this, but obviously, I'm trippin on acid and seeing things that no one else sees when they watch the Redskins play or look at the stats I provide, cause my argument is inferior... I'll have to accept that to some of you feel that way.

[skinsfan69]

[quote=Hail to the Redskins;514533]Fair enough, but once again, everyone focuses on our D in the 4th quarter because our offense can't score 20 points in a game (hell, make that 17), so no matter WHO we play, they are in it late and our D has been on the field all day and the pressure is ALL ON THEM.

I'm still trying to figure how this is somehow an inferior argument... but ok.

I'm also still trying to figure out my true feelings on the whole "4th quarter is more important than the other 3" thing.

and let me finish with this... one guy just posted what it seems a lot of you think... "We NEED an elite defense, though"

It's CRAZY to me for people to demand we be the '85 Bears, '70s Steelers or early '90s Ravens. We have a GOOD defense. Let's talk about how our offense, out of all of the teams with new offenses and new QBs is FAAARRRR behind the rest, and drop the blaming the D.[/quote]

Could you have imagined what people on here would've said if Philly scores on that last play and then we lose in OT? You know people would've been bitching about the defense. But from what I saw out there today was an offense that was simply unwatchable. Time and time again getting the ball around the 50 and not able to do a damn thing.

[SC Skins Fan]

Originally Posted by Hail to the Redskins

The funny thing about you and discussing this is that I agree, I hate our blitz packages. We hardly ever are successful on blitzes. So we agree in your argument.

But... all I have been saying all along is that:
1) our offense is AWFUL
2) our defense is certainly not equally accountable for us not making the playoffs
3) Points allowed is more important than "blitz" stats or "yards per completion", etc.
4) our pass defense is NOT below average

That's all... those 4 things. Now, I used alot of statistics, etc. to try and show this, but obviously, I'm trippin on acid and seeing things that no one else sees when they watch the Redskins play or look at the stats I provide, cause my argument is inferior... I'll have to accept that to some of you feel that way.

The Redskins actually blitzed 7 times (out of 50 pass attempts). They got pressure on one (but McNabb hit Smith for a first down). This is every Eagles pass play with the number of Redskins rushers. I think I probably agree with your point. I just thought Blache had done a poor job calling games and used too many blitzes in previous weeks.

1-10-PHI 35 (12:03) (Shotgun) 5-D.McNabb pass short left to 82-L.Smith to PHI 40 for 5 yards (22-C.Rogers). 3
3-2-PHI 43 (10:44) 5-D.McNabb pass short right to 10-D.Jackson pushed ob at WAS 49 for 8 yards (23-D.Hall) [99-A.Carter]. 4
1-10-WAS 49 (9:59) (Shotgun) PENALTY on PHI-83-G.Lewis, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at WAS 49 - No Play. 4
2-16-PHI 45 (8:52) (Shotgun) 5-D.McNabb pass incomplete short middle to 10-D.Jackson (59-L.Fletcher). 3
3-16-PHI 45 (8:47) 5-D.McNabb pass incomplete deep middle to 81-J.Avant. 3

2-8-PHI 18 (5:02) 5-D.McNabb pass short right to 87-B.Celek pushed ob at PHI 26 for 8 yards (52-R.McIntosh). 3
1-10-PHI 26 (4:28) 5-D.McNabb pass incomplete short left to 49-D.Klecko. 4
3-8-PHI 28 (3:38) (Shotgun) 5-D.McNabb sacked at PHI 18 for -10 yards (55-J.Taylor). 4

1-10-PHI 47 (14:05) 5-D.McNabb pass short middle to 28-C.Buckhalter to WAS 42 for 11 yards (30-L.Landry, 54-H.Blades). 4
1-10-WAS 42 (13:30) (Shotgun) 5-D.McNabb pass incomplete short middle to 82-L.Smith. 5 Blitz (McIntosh)
3-6-WAS 38 (12:48) 5-D.McNabb pass short right to 49-D.Klecko to WAS 36 for 2 yards (54-H.Blades, 27-F.Smoot). 3

2-8-PHI 22 (2:46) 5-D.McNabb pass incomplete short middle to 82-L.Smith. 3
Timeout #1 by PHI at 02:41.
3-8-PHI 22 (2:41) (Shotgun) 5-D.McNabb pass short right to 82-L.Smith to PHI 30 for 8 yards (27-F.Smoot, 92-D.Evans). Washington challenged the first down ruling, and the play was REVERSED. (Shotgun) 5-D.McNabb pass short right to 82-L.Smith to PHI 29 for 7 yards (27-F.Smoot, 92-D.Evans). 3

2-7-PHI 20 (14:14) (Shotgun) 5-D.McNabb pass incomplete deep middle to 10-D.Jackson (30-L.Landry, 53-M.Washington). 3
Timeout #1 by PHI at 14:05.
3-7-PHI 20 (14:05) (Shotgun) 5-D.McNabb pass short right to 86-R.Brown to PHI 30 for 10 yards (27-F.Smoot). 3
1-13-PHI 27 (12:52) (Shotgun) 5-D.McNabb scrambles left end pushed ob at PHI 30 for 3 yards (24-S.Springs). 4
3-3-PHI 37 (11:37) (Shotgun) 5-D.McNabb sacked at PHI 30 for -7 yards (55-J.Taylor). FUMBLES (55-J.Taylor), RECOVERED by WAS-59-L.Fletcher at PHI 30. 59-L.Fletcher to PHI 18 for 12 yards (69-J.Runyan). 4

1-10-PHI 20 (8:43) 5-D.McNabb pass short right to 83-G.Lewis to PHI 25 for 5 yards (24-S.Springs). 4
2-5-PHI 25 (8:07) (Shotgun) 5-D.McNabb pass incomplete short middle to 36-B.Westbrook. 3
3-5-PHI 25 (8:02) (Shotgun) 5-D.McNabb pass short middle to 82-L.Smith to PHI 42 for 17 yards (48-C.Horton). 3
2-11-PHI 41 (6:45) 5-D.McNabb pass deep left to 36-B.Westbrook to WAS 12 for 47 yards (23-D.Hall). WAS-79-L.Alexander was injured during the play. He is Out. 3
1-10-WAS 12 (5:50) (Shotgun) 5-D.McNabb pass incomplete short middle to 82-L.Smith (30-L.Landry) [99-A.Carter]. 3
2-10-WAS 12 (5:44) (Shotgun) 5-D.McNabb pass short middle to 81-J.Avant to WAS 5 for 7 yards (24-S.Springs). 5 (Blades)
3-3-WAS 5 (5:03) (Shotgun) 5-D.McNabb pass short left to 36-B.Westbrook to WAS 4 for 1 yard (48-C.Horton). 4

1-10-PHI 9 (15:00) 5-D.McNabb pass incomplete short left to 86-R.Brown. 5 (Washington)
2-10-PHI 9 (14:56) (Shotgun) 5-D.McNabb pass short middle to 36-B.Westbrook to PHI 15 for 6 yards (59-L.Fletcher). 4
3-4-PHI 15 (14:13) (Shotgun) 5-D.McNabb pass incomplete short middle to 81-J.Avant. 4

1-10-PHI 3 (11:18) 5-D.McNabb pass short right to 10-D.Jackson to PHI 9 for 6 yards (23-D.Hall). 4
2-4-PHI 9 (10:35) 5-D.McNabb pass incomplete short middle to 87-B.Celek (23-D.Hall). 5 (Washington)
3-4-PHI 9 (10:30) (Shotgun) 5-D.McNabb pass short right to 82-L.Smith to PHI 11 for 2 yards (23-D.Hall). 3

1-10-PHI 10 (8:15) (Shotgun) 5-D.McNabb pass incomplete short middle to 86-R.Brown (23-D.Hall). 6 (McIntosh and Fletcher)
2-10-PHI 10 (8:09) (Shotgun) 5-D.McNabb pass incomplete short middle to 10-D.Jackson (24-S.Springs). 4
3-10-PHI 10 (8:03) (Shotgun) 5-D.McNabb pass incomplete short right to 10-D.Jackson. 4

1-10-PHI 20 (6:09) 5-D.McNabb pass incomplete deep left to 10-D.Jackson. 4
2-10-PHI 20 (6:03) (Shotgun) 5-D.McNabb pass short right to 82-L.Smith to PHI 21 for 1 yard (24-S.Springs, 48-C.Horton). 4
3-9-PHI 21 (5:24) (Shotgun) 5-D.McNabb left end pushed ob at PHI 26 for 5 yards (95-C.Wilson). 4

2-7-PHI 12 (3:11) 5-D.McNabb pass short middle to 86-R.Brown to PHI 22 for 10 yards (23-D.Hall). 4 (Springs and Rogers came, Monty and Taylor dropped)
1-10-PHI 22 (2:47) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 5-D.McNabb pass short middle to 36-B.Westbrook to PHI 28 for 6 yards (59-L.Fletcher). 4
2-4-PHI 28 (2:15) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 5-D.McNabb pass short right to 28-C.Buckhalter to PHI 35 for 7 yards (22-C.Rogers). 3
Two-Minute Warning
1-10-PHI 35 (2:00) (Shotgun) 5-D.McNabb pass short middle to 82-L.Smith to PHI 41 for 6 yards (59-L.Fletcher). 3
2-4-PHI 41 (1:38) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 5-D.McNabb pass short middle to 81-J.Avant to 50 for 9 yards (24-S.Springs). 3
1-10- (1:14) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 5-D.McNabb pass incomplete short middle to 81-J.Avant. 3
2-10- (1:10) (Shotgun) 5-D.McNabb pass short left to 86-R.Brown pushed ob at WAS 40 for 10 yards (27-F.Smoot). 4
1-10-WAS 40 (1:05) (Shotgun) 5-D.McNabb pass incomplete deep right to 10-D.Jackson (23-D.Hall). 3
2-10-WAS 40 (:57) (Shotgun) 5-D.McNabb pass short middle to 82-L.Smith to WAS 29 for 11 yards (23-D.Hall). 5 (Springs)
1-10-WAS 29 (:39) (No Huddle) 5-D.McNabb spiked the ball to stop the clock.
2-10-WAS 29 (:39) (Shotgun) 5-D.McNabb pass incomplete deep middle to 81-J.Avant (22-C.Rogers). 4
3-10-WAS 29 (:34) (Shotgun) 5-D.McNabb pass short middle to 36-B.Westbrook to WAS 23 for 6 yards (59-L.Fletcher). 5 (Horton)
Timeout #3 by PHI at 00:27.
4-4-WAS 23 (:27) (Shotgun) 5-D.McNabb pass short left to 36-B.Westbrook to WAS 18 for 5 yards (55-J.Taylor). 3
1-10-WAS 18 (:27) (No Huddle) 5-D.McNabb spiked the ball to stop the clock.
2-10-WAS 18 (:12) (Shotgun) 5-D.McNabb pass deep middle to 86-R.Brown to WAS 1 for 17 yards (27-F.Smoot, 30-L.Landry). The Replay Assistant challenged the runner broke the plane ruling, and the play was Upheld. 3

[Hail to the Redskins]

Wow. Kudos for the effort. But yeah we did blitz more in other games... but again, we agree on this point and I feel like it's something that DEFINITELY needs to be addressed. But... the overall point of mine is to not point the finger at the D for our woes this year because these bad blitzes have not KILLED our defense this year as we are still are top 10 in my mind and in the important stats (yards allowed/points allowed)... regardless of blitz percentages... if you disagree, then so be it.

[thomasfan31]

The defense has carried this team and Blache is the mastermind behind it all this....why are we complaining about him again?!! This thread is just as pathetic as the portis one.

[MrJL]

Originally Posted by thomasfan31

The defense has carried this team and Blache is the mastermind behind it all this....why are we complaining about him again?!! This thread is just as pathetic as the portis one.

Hey, even the Washington Post and commentators were talking about the D being unable to get off the field in the fourth and suffering breakdown in the fourth in the past week.

[maroonandblack30]

I just re-read the whole Gtripp vs. Hail debate and have to say that I find it ludacris that a guy who puts so much effort into analyzing the Skins could ever say they have a "below" average pass defense and that they "give up too many points".

You could make an arguement that they don't have a "great" pass defense, but to say they are below averagae is beyond hysterical. (And I read all your super in-depth stats)

I looked at this arguement from an objective view and honestly I couldn't sum up your arguement in a couple sentences if I had to... You try to use "context neutral stats" to support your arguement but then "discount" Romo's performance because he had a cast on his hand. You lose all credibility with me right there, thats just intellectually dishonest.

Stats are good and all, but they are just tools. Usually they can't show you the whole picture with out context. You have obviously picked the stats that support your arguement while chosing to ignore the once Hail throws out.

Bottom line is this: Anyone who has watched every Skin's game this year will tell you their pass defense is no where close to "below" average.

And where are all these points that the Skins are so bad at "not preventing"? Cause they sure don't show up on the score board.

Your arguement, while eloquent, just doesn't make sense.

The fact that they are 5th in overall defense and 6th in points allowed proves in itself that they are at absolute minimum "average" (most would argue above average). You have yet to address why you consider those stats to be meaningless.

[MrJL]

Originally Posted by maroonandblack30

I just re-read the whole Gtripp vs. Hail debate and have to say that I find it ludacris that a guy who puts so much effort into analyzing the Skins could ever say they have a "below" average pass defense and that they "give up too many points".

You could make an arguement that they don't have a "great" pass defense, but to say they are below averagae is beyond hysterical. (And I read all your super in-depth stats)

I looked at this arguement from an objective view and honestly I couldn't sum up your arguement in a couple sentences if I had to... You try to use "context neutral stats" to support your arguement but then "discount" Romo's performance because he had a cast on his hand. You lose all credibility with me right there, thats just intellectually dishonest.

Stats are good and all, but they are just tools. Usually they can't show you the whole picture with out context. You have obviously picked the stats that support your arguement while chosing to ignore the once Hail throws out.

Bottom line is this: Anyone who has watched every Skin's game this year will tell you their pass defense is no where close to "below" average.

And where are all these points that the Skins are so bad at "not preventing"? Cause they sure don't show up on the score board.

Your arguement, while eloquent, just doesn't make sense.

The fact that they are 5th in overall defense and 6th in points allowed proves in itself that they are at absolute minimum "average" (most would argue above average). You have yet to address why you consider those stats to be meaningless.

For me it's because at times late in the game when the Skins were only a touchdown or a field goal down, as hard as it would be to get that for their O to get that, they've given up a touchdown or a field goal to make it a two score game.

And also because I've actually seen the DB's blanket recievers for an insanely long period and the line not get anywhere near the QB

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by maroonandblack30

The fact that they are 5th in overall defense and 6th in points allowed proves in itself that they are at absolute minimum "average" (most would argue above average). You have yet to address why you consider those stats to be meaningless.

Well, I mean, I addressed this very clearly. PPG simply ignores the amount of drives in a game. Period. If you have an offense that sustains drives, and a defense that allows sustained drives (which I proved that the Redskins do), theres going to be a relatively small amount of points scored in a game. I showed very clearly that the Redskins ACTUALLY prevent points at a league average rate.

That alone doesn't prove that the whole defense is below average (which actually was never, ever my argument). If you had read my arguments throughoughly, as you claim to have, you'll know that I went beyond what the stats say to show the downward trend in production.

But give Hail the credit for predicting the performance by the pass D against the Eagles (sort of), because I thought our downward trend would continue under Blache. I was wrong on that much.

It will be interesting to see how we finish the season, as Blache's major problems this year have come against below average offenses (and divisional opponents). But if you read and understood what I wrote, you'll agree that the defense isn't elite, at least not like the type of elite they showed they could be against Philly.

The "below average" pass defense, was an opinion, nothing more. The defense proved on Sunday that they can still have great games, something they hadn't done in over two months.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Hail to the Redskins

Today was a PERFECT example of all of the stats I've have shared for the past week... horrible offense (and yes, GTripp, I'd put our offense on in the same league as the Lions - I'll say it), above average/good defense (I never said ELITE defense, I said NOT equal to blame and NOT a below average pass defense!)

Well, I'd say your assessment of the offense is pretty far out there as well, but necessary to support your assessment of the defense.

But I'm not going to bring up what you are wrong about this week. Because the defense was great this week. And while you've missed the point on the offense, in the 4th quarter they were every bit as bad as you claim they've been all year. So, while I'd like you to see the contrast between that ineffective 4th quarter offense, and the offense in the rest of the game/season I'll settle for the hard work that SC Skins Fan put into this thread to show exactly what I meant.

Originally Posted by SC Skins Fan

Wrong. The defense played great, but they only blitzed once (that I saw). That was the point. Blache had been calling bad games, using ineffectual blitzes and unnecessarily putting pressure on the back end. Today he played coverage and, well you saw the results. You have to understand the argument to have a decent rebuttal. This game actually proved Tripp's point. Great defensive effort, great play calling by Blache.

Remember Hail, the only thing I ever said you were flat out wrong on was when you said PPG is the only stat that matters. I proved this pretty convincingly. And you never really disputed that. Skinsfan69 tried to, but that ended kind of ugly. This is the part that Matty was referring to.

Anyway, in the spirit of the holidays, let's both be right this week. I was right on Blache. You were right on the quality of the Blache-neutral defense. We beat the Eagles behind an outstanding performance from our defense. Seriously. This is a great week to be a Redskins fan.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

I don't think you're a prick. I just thing you act like you a Mr. Know It All just cause you spend countless hours breaking down film and studying stats. Just cause you take the time to do this, you think your opinion is what matters. Then you get defensive when someone challenges you on it. You get defensive if I say other people who have played in the NFL and know more about football than you (or I) say the defense is not the main problem.

Well, either way, no hard feelings.

If I put multiple hours into an argument that I'm pretty darn sure/am sure I'm right on, you can't really expect me to give it up when a few people who don't necessarily understand where I'm coming from try to shoot me down. That's what this big thing boils down do. It probably won't be the last time I get defensive on this board when someone tries to (poorly) shoot me down.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

You said there is absolutely no evidence that the offense has gone three and out on multiple occassions and failed to advance field position. I'm just trying to figure out why you would say that. Or maybe now the debate is over what you mean by "too infrequently"

You can't measure Zorn's ball control offense without noting the astounding effects on time of possession. Too many people ignore this, by claiming it goes three and out all the time.

If we assume a league average offense is the baseline for how many three and outs are acceptable (and don't we have to?), then it's factually incorrect to claim that they go three and out "too much". Our offense is one of the very best in the NFL on our side of the 50. Our problems come when the field shrinks and all of a sudden we get hit by negative plays.

Then there are some people who argue that we just as well might be going three and out. These people are wrong.

Some people confuse going three and out sometimes for going three and out always. I think these fans are vastly misinformed, and maybe it has something to do with where they are getting their information. So there you have it.

(Bonus points if you got the reference in that last sentence).

[Hail to the Redskins]

Hey look GTripp, it's the holiday season and even if it weren't, I want you to know I never meant to personally attack you throughout our debate (I may have sounded harsh at times, but I felt like I was defending my own level of intelligence and analysis).

Personally, I think one thing that is great about this site is that it's a place to come and vent as Redskins fans and also delve into intellecual banter about the current events revolving around the team. But when you make comments like people "poorly" try to dispute you... I get irritated all over again.

You say, "Remember Hail, the only thing I ever said you were flat out wrong on was when you said PPG is the only stat that matters. I proved this pretty convincingly. And you never really disputed that."

REALLY???? HUH????

Let me just remind you of a point I made that showed you didn't make such a CLEAR argument that PPG don't matter as much as points per drive and that we are average at best in this regard...

You said...
"But you'll also notice that we rank 10th in points per drive, and 12th in TDs per drive. Now look at the numbers. We are closer to #25 (Jacksonville) in points per drive than we are to #1 (Baltimore), and we are closer to # 26 (Oakland) in TDs per drive than we are to #1 (Pittsburgh)."

I said...
* How exactly is 10th in the league closer to 25th than 1st? How is being in the top 10 bad? or top 12 even? out of 32 teams, that's CERTAINLY not "middle of the pack" and DEFINITELY not close to 25th.

Also, you know we are DEFINITELY higher in the top 10 after this passed week in "your" category. So this argument solidfies the fact that we have a good defense.

You DEFIN ITELY haven't even come CLOSE to definitely proving me wrong on even ONE point... ESPECIALLY points per game allowed.


I'll finish with this nugget:

ONLY ONE, count that ONE, team in the top 17 in PPG allowed is out of the playoff hunt besides us... the Cleveland Browns (Their offense hasn't scored a TD in 5 games).

Is that not significant????

[Hail to the Redskins]

I'm sorry, but I have to address this.

GTripp, you come off as so smug and pompous in one breath and then COMPLETELY discredit yourself in the next with the insane amount of contridictions you spew.

Perfect example:

You say this... "I suggest you look at these drive stats before you post anymore. It takes the TOP argument off the table (but not the field position argument). You'll notice the Redskins defense ranks first in punts per drive. Obviously, that's good, and it's a big component of why we give up so few points per game: no team forces more punts than the Redskins. But you'll also notice that we rank 10th in points per drive, and 12th in TDs per drive. Now look at the numbers. We are closer to #25 (Jacksonville) in points per drive than we are to #1 (Baltimore), and we are closer to # 26 (Oakland) in TDs per drive than we are to #1 (Pittsburgh).
This isn't even including the fact that we are in the top seven in Ave. Starting field position.
Here's the point: when you break the points per game stat down, you realize that we're really not that good at preventing points."



Then you spew on about our offense being "one of the best in the league" at ball control??

Using those SAME EXACT STATS from YOUR SOURCE you will see that our offense was ranked 16th in yards per drive, 27th in points per drive, and 28th in TDs per drive. (and these were the rankings BEFORE that incredible offensive output Sunday)

Basically, being 10th in points allowed per drive is terrible, comparable to Jax and Oakland, but our offense being ranked 16th in yards per drive is pretty damned awesome....

EH??