John McCain: What Went Wrong?

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

McCain overstated things, just like most Dems overstate how bad things are. I swear that sometimes the anti-war "get us out of Iraq's Civil War and get us into Darfur's Civil War" crowd salivates every time some bomb goes off in Baghdad.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

I was floored when he said conditions in Iraq are improving. When is someone going to step up to the damn plate and say we're screwed, bring our boys home.

Even Dems on the Hill concede that Gen. Petraeus and the surge seem to be having a positive effect in Iraq, at least for now.

I certainly understand why many people think Iraq is a lost cause and it may very well be. However, when will such people actually stand up and say "We surrender?" I think we should either stay and fight, or leave immediately, because a half-assed policy of a slow withdrawal is the worst of both worlds. Yet Dems are not willing to call for an immediate withdrawal because they are scared of the political consequences of doing so.

[Hog1]

You the man SGG! Get in it or get out!


Wars Suck! Were Americans, and we are going to continue to fight them from time to time.
For those of you that think we should pull out, what do you think will happen if we did it tomorrow? For that matter, if we pull out any time before the Iraqi good guys are in charge? Do you think the bad guys have had enough and will go away.
It will be a HUGE victory for the Jihadi's everywhere. If not crippled or under some kind of control, we'll be enjoying 911 type episodes routinely. We can fight these guys on their soil or OURS, which do you want?
Bush said from the beginning, we are in this for the long haul. That is what he meant. As in on-going. It makes it hard for them to mobilize large scale operations elsewhere if they are spending their resources trying to keep us at bay in Iraq, Afganistan, etc.
I do not agree with many things Bush has done, but he has kept 9-11 from happening again. He has had the courage to continue his support of the war and the troops to that end. It has, and continues to cost his dearly.
I have had several conversations with current and former American warriors assigned to Iraq. They don't tell the same story the media does (imagine that). According to them, it is the 10% of Iraqi's that make the headlines about not wanting us there, the war is BS , hurting their country, etc. The rank and file Iraqi hates Sadam, and the radical Jihadi's. Would you not? They are afraid of being killed along with their families if they speak or act up. That sort of thing rarely makes the news.
Like it or not, some kind of action is required. If not the war in Iraq, what do you want to do?

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

Hey, I grew up in the inner city of D.C. during the 80s and then went off to the first Gulf War a couple of years after high school. I spent 4 yrs on a Naval vessel which was deployed to the Persian Gulf. So you're preaching to the choir on the murder rate of our inner cities vs. the virtues of fighting a war.

I probably know of more 'street casualties' than I really care to talk about. But your point is certainly well taken. It's just that we live in a culture that, unfortunately, places a premium on what's news worthy and what isn't.

I feel your passion, bro, I really do. But there are no real positives in war. The events of 9/11 made our country very emotional and we stood behind President Bush 110% when he declared war on Iraq. And for the most part, even when things began to unravel, we still said, let's do the patriotic thing and support our leader. However, at some point reason and blind loyalty have to give way to truth and facts. Now that the facts have surfaced little by little, the media now feels justified in taking shots at Bush and his cabinet. People that stood with him in the beginning are now distancing themselves from him. They now stand in stark contrast to the individuals that 'went to war' with Bush in the beginning.

The media, in many cases, are simply echoing what's coming out of Bush's own house, so to speak.

I know several people who have been there for several tours. They all say that morale overall isn't low. In fact it has been strangely positive for the most part. Those with low morale supposedly are the malcontents.

As for the Iraqis I was told that the everyday Iragi folk WANT us there. They love that we have tried to help them. They realize we aren't the one CAUSING the problems we have just done a crappy job of solving the problems.

We have to remember that these people have everything going against them.

-They come from a area with a culture that lends itself to totalitarianism.
-They have been ruled with an iron fist for centuries.
-There are insane idiots trying to maintain this type of environment.
-They have spent their entire lives just trying to stay out of trouble and survive.

No where in there is there even a hint of ability to stand up and defend themselves. We shouldn't have expected that we could go in and simply remove a dictator and they would then firgure out what to do. They have no clue. That's what we screwed up. To intimate that it can't be won is silly though. It will just take a long long long long long time. We almost will have to wait until the next generation of Iraqis are grown and ready to take over. I can quibble with our expectations for the war and how we went about it but at this point leaving is the most coward thing we could do.

Whatever happened to Americans nutting up and getting the job done? Being hard workers who did what it took to finish a job, even if everyone in charge is screwing the pooch. I am not saying the bashing of Bush is unwarranted because it isn't I am saying that we need to decide as a country that we are not going to pussyfoot around this type of stuff. We're in it and we need to finish the job whether it takes 18 months or 18 years or 500 years. We're the f*cking USA and we're acting like a bunch of little scared twerps.

I know it isn't a popular war and many think we shouldn't be there but that is irrelevant because we ARE there. That horse has left the barn. Now we have to figure out what to do about it. We have only two options. Stay and finish the job or leave. To me leaving is just plain wrong. We started this mess and should finish it. Leaving now or any time before Iraq is ready emboldens enemy and leaves Iraqis hung out to dry. To me that is a bigger crime than anything. Leaving them to fend for themselves is tantamount to leaving a 4 year old in the middle of the woods in winter. It's our job now and we should finish it.

[FRPLG]

To me, one of the most interesting things to come out of this mess is a deeper understanding of politics. I have followed politics closely for a long time but this mess has finally brought me to the conclusion that our system is utterly and totally broken. You can't trust either party to tell the straight up truth and you definitely can't trust either party to simply do the right thing on just about any issue. Both sides are ruled by special interests and party politics and it has ruined our government. On top of that is the realization that not only is there a general left leaning of the media in this country but also the counter weight of the right leaning media types is insanely right. I don't know what scares me more. The engrained lefties in traditional media or the wacked out righties trying to counteract them. It's like the thought process is "Well there a lot more lefties than righties. So us righties gotta be super crazy right to balance it out." Goddman you can't trust the media or politicans. We gotta do something about this f*cked up system.

Rant over.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Logic would suggest that soldiers, sailors, and airmen serving abroad would have low morale as they are far from loved ones and see their fellow countrymen killed in horrible ways. A lot of protestors argue that they are fighting against the war precisely because they care about the troops.

However, statistics do not bear out such claims. The military's RE-enlistment rate has met or exceeded goals for several years now. Moreover, the highest re-enlistment rates are among those units that have deployed overseas. By the way, "re-enlistment" means that a soldier, marine, airman, or sailor decided to sign a new "employment" contract with the military for another 4 years or so.

So, my question is, if the men and women in the military have such piss-poor morale and hate the current status of the military, why are they coming back in such large numbers? Many would argue that the military's re-enlistment bonuses are the reason, but if it's really as bad as people are making it out to be, would $10K really persuade them to re-enlist? I doubt it.

[Hog1]

Nicely done FRPLG. On both posts. I could not agree more. I thinnk this country and our government are out of control. The politicians want nothing more than to serve themselves, and the American people are paying the bills. We are out of control on all fronts and if things don't change, it will not end pretty.

[FRPLG]

I don't believe morale is low. They indoctrinate these guys to be ready for crappy conditions and such. That's one thing a lot of people forget. These soldiers in general don't really have the same mentality as us normal civilian types who can't imagine having to be over there doing this. It is one reason I respect them so much. Because they can take a dangerous and sometimes crappy job and keep doing it over and over again with smiles. I am sure there are some who don't like it but there are always people who complain about something. Again I have heard from more than a one person that morale really is pretty strong.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by Hog1

Nicely done FRPLG. On both posts. I could not agree more. I thinnk this country and our government are out of control. The politicians want nothing more than to serve themselves, and the American people are paying the bills. We are out of control on all fronts and if things don't change, it will not end pretty.

I am not convinced that all politicians are bad. I am convinced that those leading the parties are either only serving themselves or just go along because it is the way the system works and they think somehow they can make it better(and never do). I believe most politicians are just go alongers. They can't do a thing without party help and to get party help you have to play the game. The game is BS and party poltiics has to be fixed.

[saden1]

Everyone knows the Dems are a bunch of pussies. I agree about their half-assness.

But lets get real, walking away from a bad situation is a good thing. We've all walked away from a bad situation in our lives and the same rules that applies to our personal lives applies to our nation. Iraq is a black hole that's sucking up monetary resources and more importantly American lives.

Surrender is just a catch phrase people utter to appeal to our emotions, fear and pride. There is a reason why pride is one of the seven deadly sin. It makes men irrational.

[Hog1]

Perhaps I over-stated the point. I do not believe that all politicains are bad either. However, those that are good, seem to be greatly outnumbered by the unscrupulous majority. We're in trouble unless REAL change occurs. I can't see it on the horizon as of yet.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

To me, one of the most interesting things to come out of this mess is a deeper understanding of politics. I have followed politics closely for a long time but this mess has finally brought me to the conclusion that our system is utterly and totally broken. You can't trust either party to tell the straight up truth and you definitely can't trust either party to simply do the right thing on just about any issue. Both sides are ruled by special interests and party politics and it has ruined our government. On top of that is the realization that not only is there a general left leaning of the media in this country but also the counter weight of the right leaning media types is insanely right. I don't know what scares me more. The engrained lefties in traditional media or the wacked out righties trying to counteract them. It's like the thought process is "Well there a lot more lefties than righties. So us righties gotta be super crazy right to balance it out." Goddman you can't trust the media or politicans. We gotta do something about this f*cked up system.

Rant over.

This story should make you sick to your stomach.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by saden1

But lets get real, walking away from a bad situation is a good thing.

Except when it creates an even worse situation. I agree that if there were no repercussions from walking away then I'll drive the damn bus over there and pick every last one of them up and bring them home. But no one seems to argue that leaving will only make it worse for us so I can't get behind that. The last thing we need is for Iraq to become terrorist training central. In the long run fixing the mess that is IRaq will be best I think. I don't think just because it is hard that we should leave. I totally don't agree that it is a no win situation.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by saden1

Everyone knows the Dems are a bunch of pussies. I agree about their half-assness.

But lets get real, walking away from a bad situation is a good thing. We've all walked away from a bad situation in our lives and the same rules that applies to our personal lives applies to our nation. Iraq is a black hole that's sucking up monetary resources and more importantly American lives.

Surrender is just a catch phrase people utter to appeal to our emotions, fear and pride. There is a reason why pride is one of the seven deadly sin. It makes men irrational.

I agree that, generally speaking, walking away from a bad situation is a good thing. For example, if you're arguing with a fool outside of bar and he's got a knife, the bigger man will simply walk away. Sometimes, however, walking away from a bad thing only makes the situation worse. A father who has a troubled child doesn't serve the child well by simply walking away. Sometimes, the painful choice is the right one and burying your head in the sand, plugging your ears and closing your eyes in the hopes that the bad man will go away, or simply running away from your problems is not.

As for "surrender" being nothing more than a catchphrase, its not. Rightly or wrongly, many people want the U.S. to leave Iraq immediately. What else do you call running away under fire? An unanticipated re-deployment of our forces out of the fighting and back to the U.S.?

I am really angry with Bush for getting us into Iraq, but I am not convinced that an immediate withdrawal is the right thing to do and I am certain that a timed withdrawal is not. If we do leave Iraq, however, I would like the anti-war protestors to refrain for the next 20 years from calling for the U.S. to get involved in any civil wars with hints of genocide.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by saden1

This story should make you sick to your stomach.

Here's the thing. I don't blame lobbyists one bit for anything. They have a job to do. The are supposed to garner support for their industries/companies/whatever. Most do a stand up job of it. They lobby honestly, legally and morally. There is a way to do that and most do it. There are some who go over board. Heck there are a good amount. Not 50% but maybe 10% who "buy" votes. But guess what, I don't blame them. They are simply playing the game. The didn't invent the game. Politicians did and politicians are the ones who don't do a thing about it. There isn't one intelligent person in this country that doesn't understand that to end this system the politicians will have to fix it. They refuese to so at this point I lay the blame that their feet and no one elses.