Should Mike Shanahan be fired?

[Skinzman]

Originally Posted by The Goat

Too many examples to list of coaches that turn a broken franchise around and achieve a winning record and/or even the playoffs. But top of my mind: Lions, Niners, Bengals, and of course Redskins in Gibbs II.

So I guess observation is my answer. Three years is a long time in any sport, but the way NFL promotes parity through it's structure (think about how baseball doesn't have a salary cap) I think you see it here the most.

Some of these teams that were turned around arent exactly model franchises. Lions had a QB that finally stop being injured. They had one good year and are struggling again. Niners was more about Singletary than anything else. They actually had a good team, just one that refused to play for a guy that relied on insults instead of coaching. The Bengals are the same inconsistent team they usually are with a random winning season here and there. The record is a little better as a whole than 10 years ago but no one considers them world beaters. If the Bengals are what we are aspiring to be, then why care who our coach is?

The situations of all three were completely different than what the Redskins had three years ago.

The biggest problem is that the Redskins have been run by a fan. One that calls for heads to roll after a year or two, and that has been one of the problems of this team. There has been no continuity or chemistry. Especially given that Snyder will most likely look to go back to the days of Snyderatto if he fires Shanny. Which does not mean winning, in case you missed the last 20 years.

To say we are no closer to being competitive is to call RG3 a scrub. There is no way that statement is even remotely true. I get that a lot want to win something so bad that going back to winning the offseason every year is a goal. Its just a stupid goal. Win today or be fired tomorrow is not going to cut it in the NFL. We have been through 20 years of that and some are desperate to go back. I am personally not that excited about winning the offseason just so fans can claim that we have won something.

Shanny has been here 2 1/2 years. Second year was a lockout so FA was not ideal by any stretch of the imagination. First year Shanny deserves a lot of blame, because he actually thought he could win now. He deserves his fair share for that but it seems we are moving to build through the draft the last two drafts and I dont want that to stop. A coaching change now just means a brand new O-line being put in place (since the ZBS isnt exactly common) as well as massive changes to everything else. How long will that rebuild take? According to some here, it should only take 3 games. I call bs to that assertion. Does he deserve 10 years? No, and I never said he should get it. But this carousel at coaching and philosophies will never work.

As for Parity, the last 10 or so years, the same parity has existed in MLB as has in the NFL. 3 teams won it all twice with a few breakthroughs from a couple of other teams.

If the goal is to ruin RG3, then by all means, keep screaming for a new coach every year.

[Hog1]

........Nice, Skinzman

[punch it in]

Originally Posted by Skinzman

Out of 8 games, there has only been one we werent in. That didnt happen all that much the last few years.

Im still a believer that most teams went ultra conservative with us the last few years (or like the Giants last year, just assumed the win was guaranteed as long as they showed up and gave a half-ass effort). Most teams knew that as long as they werent giving up pick 6's to our defense, they would most likely win. We had no offense, so there was no reason to put in game plans to try and score 30 points against us and risk our defense scoring points. Its not that teams didnt want to score like crazy on us, they just knew that there was no reason to risk a play when you could just punt knowing that the ball would come back with no points scored by the Skins. Get a TD or two, then laugh as Rex/Beck/McNabb/Cambell ect. tried to get us back into the game.

I think we are getting teams best efforts and best game plans this year, and are staying right with them even with the terrible defense that we have.

Might be the case during a certain game that a team took us for granted but no way every game. Thats insanity. Its the nfl. No team took a seven point lead over us and shut down shop. Bottom line is our offense is better and our defense is worse. Now we lose 35-32 instead of 17-10. Its that simple. Teams may fear rg-3 but they know they are going to put up huge points. So the flipside of your argument would be that teams know they can let us score and it doesnt matter because they are going to score even quicker. But i think thats just as ridiculous. Unless your an albert haynesworth type player you are out there to play every down. No way coaches are telling players last year - "hey guys - take it easy dont get hurt this team cant score. ". Thats just silly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Skinzman]

Originally Posted by punch it in

Might be the case during a certain game that a team took us for granted but no way every game. Thats insanity. Its the nfl. No team took a seven point lead over us and shut down shop. Bottom line is our offense is better and our defense is worse. Now we lose 35-32 instead of 17-10. Its that simple. Teams may fear rg-3 but they know they are going to put up huge points. So the flipside of your argument would be that teams know they can let us score and it doesnt matter because they are going to score even quicker. But i think thats just as ridiculous. Unless your an albert haynesworth type player you are out there to play every down. No way coaches are telling players last year - "hey guys - take it easy dont get hurt this team cant score. ". Thats just silly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Or you could discuss what I was talking about. Coaches want to win, its less about winning by 50 than it is to win a game, regardless of the score. The game plans we saw the last few years have been more conservative. Because a game plan to score 30 or 40 was not needed. As well as play calling. OC's were not dialing up the plays that they are this year. If first down lost yardage, some OC's ran out the series and punted instead of being more risky. It has nothing to so with telling the players to let off, and has to do with play calling, realizing that a punt was a lot better than risking an int. while going for a TD.

Teams accepted that their game plans and play calling would result in more punts and less points. They just didnt care, because they didnt need to score every series to get the win, and that win is all they care about.

[NC_Skins]

Originally Posted by The Goat

But top of my mind: Lions, Niners, Bengals, and of course Redskins in Gibbs II.

I think you have selective or fuzzy memory.


Jim Schwartz -Lions:

1st year - 2-14 (drafted stafford with #1)
2nd year- 6-10 (drafted Suh with #2)
3rd year- 10-6
4th year - 3-4

This your idea of a turnaround? Mike hasn't ever been in the #1 or #2 slot drafting, nor has he had one of the best players in the NFL in Calvin Johnson, who Schwartz had. Mike's first 2 years were a lot better than Jim Schwartz who you mysteriously are crediting with a "turn around". Are you blind?



Jim Harbaugh - 49ers

1st year -13-3
2nd year 6-2

Lets look at the talent Jim inherited.

NaVorro Bowman
Patrick Willis (1st rounder)
Frank Gore
Joe Staley (1st rounder)
Anthony Davis (1st rounder)
Andy Lee
Vernon Davis (1st rounder)
Justin Smith
Michael Crabtree (1st rounder)

Dude, Jim had a all-pro type of talent he inherited. He didn't turn shit around. Mike Singletary simply couldn't coach or at least get his players to respond. Dude had a solid OL to boot, and a pro-bowl running back to go along with a incredible defense. If Mike inherited this type of talent and our record was anything like it is now, I would be right along with you hating.


Marvin Lewis- Bengals

Are you ****ing shitting me man? Marvin Lewis is sporting a .480 win percentage in Cincinnati since 2003

1st year - 8-8
2nd year 8-8
3rd year - 11-5 (lost wild card game)
4th year -8-8
5th year - 7-9
6th year - 4-11
7th year - 10-6 (lost wild card game)
8th year- 4-12
9th year- 9-7 (lost wild card game)
10th year- 3-4

Are you kidding me? Where is the "turn around"? They've been the playoffs only 3 times in that span and lost the wild card game each time? Is this the turn around you dream of?


Joe Gibbs 2.0 - Redskins

1st year - 6-10 (they were 9-7 year before)
2nd year 10-6 (lost divisional playoff game)
3rd year- 5-11
4th year - 9-7 (lost wild card game)

NOT a turn around. I'm not even going to bother researching all the stupid ass trades Gibbs/Cerrato did during this time all to "WIN NOW".....and they really couldn't even do that. All those draft picks and contracts they handed out for vets and FA and the best they could manage was a 10-6? Really?



C'mon man!!!

[ethat001]

Dude. NCSkins, that was a beat down. Nice post.

Look, I think we need to be patient & give Shanny time. He just got a real QB and it's only ~7 games into it.

Regardless, the point is well taken, despite the NCskins beatdown. I think Goat is trying to say that we've seen three years with the same record, which is a lot of losing. I get that, and I feel you. I just think patience is a virtue. Shanny hasn't made all the right decisions, but on the decisions that count, he's been right a lot. RG3, Morris, Kerrigan, Bowen, CArriker, TWilliams, Riley, etc. Lots of misses with secondary and O-line, but it's a work in progress.

I'd say although Shanny's been here for 3 years, I think his clock should start now with his new QB, and we give him 1-2 years. We're on the front page of the sports news on most weeks, and our QB is on every other commercial. Our offense is among the top in the league and it's actually exciting to watch games (really tired of the 10-7 battles of the past). I think if we get a couple of breaks on defense with good draft/FA/avoiding injuries, we have a playoff team in this NFL world of parity.

I think we're making progress.

[Hog1]

Originally Posted by ethat001

Dude. NCSkins, that was a beat down. Nice post.

Look, I think we need to be patient & give Shanny time. He just got a real QB and it's only ~7 games into it.

Regardless, the point is well taken, despite the NCskins beatdown. I think Goat is trying to say that we've seen three years with the same record, which is a lot of losing. I get that, and I feel you. I just think patience is a virtue. Shanny hasn't made all the right decisions, but on the decisions that count, he's been right a lot. RG3, Morris, Kerrigan, Bowen, CArriker, TWilliams, Riley, etc. Lots of misses with secondary and O-line, but it's a work in progress.

I'd say although Shanny's been here for 3 years, I think his clock should start now with his new QB, and we give him 1-2 years. We're on the front page of the sports news on most weeks, and our QB is on every other commercial. Our offense is among the top in the league and it's actually exciting to watch games (really tired of the 10-7 battles of the past). I think if we get a couple of breaks on defense with good draft/FA/avoiding injuries, we have a playoff team in this NFL world of parity.

I think we're making progress.

Actually, he's 2.5 yrs into a 5 year deal. In his opening news conf as the Skins HC....He said it would take 5 years to get the Skins Org and team around.

[punch it in]

Originally Posted by Skinzman

Or you could discuss what I was talking about. Coaches want to win, its less about winning by 50 than it is to win a game, regardless of the score. The game plans we saw the last few years have been more conservative. Because a game plan to score 30 or 40 was not needed. As well as play calling. OC's were not dialing up the plays that they are this year. If first down lost yardage, some OC's ran out the series and punted instead of being more risky. It has nothing to so with telling the players to let off, and has to do with play calling, realizing that a punt was a lot better than risking an int. while going for a TD.

Teams accepted that their game plans and play calling would result in more punts and less points. They just didnt care, because they didnt need to score every series to get the win, and that win is all they care about.

I know exactly what u are talking about. Teams dont gameplan to score one or two touchdowns. Ever. Never.
Teams are throwing the ball on us and not running cus our secondary sucks not cus rg-3 is scoring alot.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[punch it in]

Originally Posted by NC_Skins

I think you have selective or fuzzy memory.


Jim Schwartz -Lions:

1st year - 2-14 (drafted stafford with #1)
2nd year- 6-10 (drafted Suh with #2)
3rd year- 10-6
4th year - 3-4

This your idea of a turnaround? Mike hasn't ever been in the #1 or #2 slot drafting, nor has he had one of the best players in the NFL in Calvin Johnson, who Schwartz had. Mike's first 2 years were a lot better than Jim Schwartz who you mysteriously are crediting with a "turn around". Are you blind?



Jim Harbaugh - 49ers

1st year -13-3
2nd year 6-2

Lets look at the talent Jim inherited.

NaVorro Bowman
Patrick Willis (1st rounder)
Frank Gore
Joe Staley (1st rounder)
Anthony Davis (1st rounder)
Andy Lee
Vernon Davis (1st rounder)
Justin Smith
Michael Crabtree (1st rounder)

Dude, Jim had a all-pro type of talent he inherited. He didn't turn shit around. Mike Singletary simply couldn't coach or at least get his players to respond. Dude had a solid OL to boot, and a pro-bowl running back to go along with a incredible defense. If Mike inherited this type of talent and our record was anything like it is now, I would be right along with you hating.


Marvin Lewis- Bengals

Are you ****ing shitting me man? Marvin Lewis is sporting a .480 win percentage in Cincinnati since 2003

1st year - 8-8
2nd year 8-8
3rd year - 11-5 (lost wild card game)
4th year -8-8
5th year - 7-9
6th year - 4-11
7th year - 10-6 (lost wild card game)
8th year- 4-12
9th year- 9-7 (lost wild card game)
10th year- 3-4

Are you kidding me? Where is the "turn around"? They've been the playoffs only 3 times in that span and lost the wild card game each time? Is this the turn around you dream of?


Joe Gibbs 2.0 - Redskins

1st year - 6-10 (they were 9-7 year before)
2nd year 10-6 (lost divisional playoff game)
3rd year- 5-11
4th year - 9-7 (lost wild card game)

NOT a turn around. I'm not even going to bother researching all the stupid ass trades Gibbs/Cerrato did during this time all to "WIN NOW".....and they really couldn't even do that. All those draft picks and contracts they handed out for vets and FA and the best they could manage was a 10-6? Really?



C'mon man!!!

The niners sucked before harbaugh got there. Give the guy credit man. Every other team was in the playoffs their third year. Making the playoffs is great There seems to be this illusion that shanny isnt looking for a " meaningless playoff run". Like these other examples. Shanny is building a dynasty. The lions were officially the worst team in the history of football and they went to the playoffs in his third year! And thats because he had calvin johnson? Really? They all went from very bad teams to respectable or damn good within three years. Shannys hasnt. Bottom line. No excuses. Face the facts.

Edit : who cares if crabtree was a first rounder. Dude sucks.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[punch it in]

Edit

[NC_Skins]

Originally Posted by punch it in

The niners sucked before harbaugh got there. Give the guy credit man. Every other team was in the playoffs their third year. Making the playoffs is great There seems to be this illusion that shanny isnt looking for a " meaningless playoff run". Like these other examples. Shanny is building a dynasty. The lions were officially the worst team in the history of football and they went to the playoffs in his third year! And thats because he had calvin johnson? Really? They all went from very bad teams to respectable or damn good within three years. Shannys hasnt. Bottom line. No excuses. Face the facts.

Edit : who cares if crabtree was a first rounder. Dude sucks.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The 49ers sucked, their talent did not. I listed all the talent on that team. Mike Singletary obviously was a poor coach. It still wasn't a "turn around" with a team with bottom of the barrel talent. We had Orakpo and old ass London Fletcher. You going to compare that with the list I put up the 49ers had?

No, the Lions haven't turned shit around man. Who's to say that 10-6 record last year was a fluke. They are sucking so far this year. Fact is, that Mike had a better record his first 2 years than did Schwartz, YET you are up here patting that guy on the back?

Schwartz was 8-24 his first two years. Mike was 11-21. Also, you talk about Detroit being the worst, did you not forget THEY BEAT US!!! Yeah, that little fun fact escaped your alternate reality didn't it.

This is mind boggling. It really is.

[Hog1]

Originally Posted by nc_skins

the 49ers sucked, their talent did not. I listed all the talent on that team. Mike singletary obviously was a poor coach. It still wasn't a "turn around" with a team with bottom of the barrel talent. We had orakpo and old ass london fletcher. You going to compare that with the list i put up the 49ers had?

No, the lions haven't turned shit around man. Who's to say that 10-6 record last year was a fluke. They are sucking so far this year. Fact is, that mike had a better record his first 2 years than did schwartz, yet you are up here patting that guy on the back?

Schwartz was 8-24 his first two years. Mike was 11-21. Also, you talk about detroit being the worst, did you not forget they beat us!!! Yeah, that little fun fact escaped your alternate reality didn't it.

this is mind boggling. It really is.

lol.........

[skinsfaninok]

Originally Posted by NC_Skins

The 49ers sucked, their talent did not. I listed all the talent on that team. Mike Singletary obviously was a poor coach. It still wasn't a "turn around" with a team with bottom of the barrel talent. We had Orakpo and old ass London Fletcher. You going to compare that with the list I put up the 49ers had?

No, the Lions haven't turned shit around man. Who's to say that 10-6 record last year was a fluke. They are sucking so far this year. Fact is, that Mike had a better record his first 2 years than did Schwartz, YET you are up here patting that guy on the back?

Schwartz was 8-24 his first two years. Mike was 11-21. Also, you talk about Detroit being the worst, did you not forget THEY BEAT US!!! Yeah, that little fun fact escaped your alternate reality didn't it.

This is mind boggling. It really is.

And J.S. has more talent in Detroit by far

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by NC_Skins

I think you have selective or fuzzy memory.


Jim Schwartz -Lions:

1st year - 2-14 (drafted stafford with #1)
2nd year- 6-10 (drafted Suh with #2)
3rd year- 10-6
4th year - 3-4

This your idea of a turnaround? Mike hasn't ever been in the #1 or #2 slot drafting, nor has he had one of the best players in the NFL in Calvin Johnson, who Schwartz had. Mike's first 2 years were a lot better than Jim Schwartz who you mysteriously are crediting with a "turn around". Are you blind?



Jim Harbaugh - 49ers

1st year -13-3
2nd year 6-2

Lets look at the talent Jim inherited.

NaVorro Bowman
Patrick Willis (1st rounder)
Frank Gore
Joe Staley (1st rounder)
Anthony Davis (1st rounder)
Andy Lee
Vernon Davis (1st rounder)
Justin Smith
Michael Crabtree (1st rounder)

Dude, Jim had a all-pro type of talent he inherited. He didn't turn shit around. Mike Singletary simply couldn't coach or at least get his players to respond. Dude had a solid OL to boot, and a pro-bowl running back to go along with a incredible defense. If Mike inherited this type of talent and our record was anything like it is now, I would be right along with you hating.


Marvin Lewis- Bengals

Are you ****ing shitting me man? Marvin Lewis is sporting a .480 win percentage in Cincinnati since 2003

1st year - 8-8
2nd year 8-8
3rd year - 11-5 (lost wild card game)
4th year -8-8
5th year - 7-9
6th year - 4-11
7th year - 10-6 (lost wild card game)
8th year- 4-12
9th year- 9-7 (lost wild card game)
10th year- 3-4

Are you kidding me? Where is the "turn around"? They've been the playoffs only 3 times in that span and lost the wild card game each time? Is this the turn around you dream of?


Joe Gibbs 2.0 - Redskins

1st year - 6-10 (they were 9-7 year before)
2nd year 10-6 (lost divisional playoff game)
3rd year- 5-11
4th year - 9-7 (lost wild card game)

NOT a turn around. I'm not even going to bother researching all the stupid ass trades Gibbs/Cerrato did during this time all to "WIN NOW".....and they really couldn't even do that. All those draft picks and contracts they handed out for vets and FA and the best they could manage was a 10-6? Really?



C'mon man!!!

Unequivocally, Shanahan still has the worst "turnaround" record compared to any of these examples.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

Just curious what your take on the train of thought that offenses didn't run it up on us because they believed we couldn't come back - thus artificially raising our defensive stats.

Completely fabricated. No basis in reality.