Spare time? Try conspiracy theories!

Daseal · 06-26-2004, 12:14 AM

Maybe I'm behind the curve, but a friend just sent me some links about the flight 77 into the Pentagon being a fake. I'll let you guys decide, they make some interesting points.

http://www.newsfollowup.com/flight77.htm

make your own decesion.

JWsleep · 06-26-2004, 01:40 AM

Wow. If you want to discredit us on the left, keep posting BS like this. Nonesense like this helps Bush win.

Daseal · 06-26-2004, 07:13 AM

JWsleep - I didn't say I believed it, and I also read primarily the conservative side and a few links on the liberal side. I just said it's a bit interesting. I posted this for people to waste time for.

I do find it interesting that they haven't provided any videos near like they did for the WTC. You think the Pentagon doesn't have constant survalliance? There were over 5 buildings with cameras that should have been in the 757's flight path, yet all we have is a 4 second clip from a security checkpoint fairly far away that seems to be missing a few frames.

As I said, do I believe it? I don't think it holds much water. Is it interesting? I think so.

Gmanc711 · 06-26-2004, 07:35 AM

Yeah , Ease off Dasel. Theres lot of stuff like that, which really get me going. Like the TuPac theroies, and the theroy that we never landed on the moon. None of it is proboly true, but its all very interesting and makes you think.

That Guy · 06-26-2004, 07:58 AM

i live 15 miles from the pentagon, i know plenty of people that saw it firsthand, i watched them rebuild it... look at the site, its got bush watch with 500 anti-bush links and a howard dean section which only links to stories of how great he is and how much people like him...

its a horribly biased site. its not interesting, its pointless crap.
and btw, 1 + 1 = 25, makes you think doesn't it, i mean, what if??

That Guy · 06-26-2004, 08:02 AM

sample of some of the dean links:

American Arab Institute Dean greeted warmly by Arab Americans
Blacks for Dean Dean supporters, info
Switch to Dean independents, greens +, switch to Dean
Punx for Dean changing America, one punk at a time.

meanwhile, the bush links:

525 Reasons to Dump Bush.com
Bushspeaks top patriotic anti-bush site
BoycottBush.net target companies that bankroll Bush...global warming
In These Times, Bush, Bin Laden Family ties

I mean, come on, how can this be taking seriously at all, with such an obvious agenda to push?

skinsfanthru&thru · 06-26-2004, 01:10 PM

it's sites like that one that r pretty much pissing on the graves of those who 've died. My uncle was working near wear the plane hit and luckily was not only able to get himself out but was also able to help others out. I couldn't read more than a couple paragraphs of that guys garbage. it's just sad that people like this, with the iq of a rock, r out there and they r actually making people wonder "what really happened." I don't know who to feel more sorry for.

That Guy · 06-26-2004, 01:57 PM

my dad actually worked in the offices that got completely demolished at the pentagon, but he retired (after 30 years) on sept 1st, 2001... lucky me.

JWsleep · 06-26-2004, 03:49 PM

Sorry, Daseal, but I spend a lot of time defending myself and my liberal beliefs against my more conservative friends and relatives, and they are always running at me with this "loony left" label. So when my fellow anti-bush folk, like yourself, even bring this sort of thing up, it pushes my buttons.

A conspiricy of this magnitude is, well, off the chart implausible. Just consider the number of poeple that have to be in on it. And consider how sophisticated it must be. Do you really think such a thing could go on in our government? I don't mean because of their noble character or anything, I just mean, do you really think they could do this, logistically and strategically?

Here's another hypothesis: on September 11th, al Queda opertatives, under opertational orders from Kahlid Sheik Mohammed, hijacked 4 planes, crashed 2 of them into the WTC, one into the pentagon, and the other crashed in PA when the people on board resisted. They did this to further the worldwide aims of their organization: to rid the middle east of non-muslims, to assert sharia law throughout the region, and to overcome what they see as the enemies of Islam. This includes many current Arab regeims that are seen as pro-Western: Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan. Morocco, etc. The hijakings served to stirke at the American enemy in his homeland, to destabilize the world situation, particularly with regard to the middle east, and to generate support for al Queda through publicity. There is considerable evidence for this hypothesis, and it must be ruled out before alternatives are embraced.

Bringing this rival conspiricay view into the conversation serves to discredit those who even consider it. I mean that. If you are not already talking to those who are SO anti-Bush, anti-Military, anti-Globalization, etc. that they've departed from the conversation already, people are just going to label you a nut, and ignore what you are saying from now on, even if your later comments make sense. Do you really want to undermine yourself (not to mention your allies against Bush, like myself) in this way? From a dialectic point of view, from a political point of view, and from a stragtegic point of view, bringing this hypothesis into the debate is an error. I am in no way endorsing censorship; rather, I am arguing that, if a hypothesis is so outlandish that it is irrational to support it, you will appear irrational, and thus irrelvant to future debate, if you intoroduce it into the conversation.

Finally, imagine that the standard hypothesis is true. Then bringing the rival view up is very troubling, because it deflects the proper moral blame from the real criminals. It's a little like saying "hey, maybe Hitler didn't kill the jews." This is very different, Gmanc, from bringing up Tupac or the Moon stuff. It is WAY more morally loaded, in part because of the horrific results of this act, and in part because it risks deflecting blame (and perhaps even aiding the casue of) the terrorists who did this. It's not like speculating if Suge really did in Tupac; it's a different kind of thing. Given that this is a skins site, I bet we all have friends, family, maybe even ourselves, who were in downtown DC that day; maybe we even lost people (both That Guy and Skinsfan have already said they had people at risk). Those planes were aimed at us. One of the longest days of my life was waiting to hear from my sister, who was working downtown that day. It's not idle specualtion to wonder if maybe al Queda didn't do it; it's not even interesting, I think. It's morally suspect, given the circumstances, and politcally damaging.

PS Despite that, I'm not angry angry that the issue was raised. I love debating these topics, because I think that's how wisdom is generated, and MAN, do we need some wisdom at this point in history. I just think it's important to consider the consequences of bringing this idea up, because the stakes are VERY high.

Daseal · 06-26-2004, 09:59 PM

JWSleep - have you read anything I typed? Every single time I said I thought it was an interesting read, but I also said I didn't believe it.

Personally I love conspiracy theories and enjoy reading about them. I know people, republican and democratic that went at this with an open mind and asked some questions. I'm not going to go off and said this happened, but it is an interesting read. I was up late one night and I was reading about the parrallels between Lincoln and Kennedy assassinations (which is kind of crazy, there are about 15 parallels), then a friend sent me an illuminati link, which then led me to this. I find it interesting to read, I don't hold water to it. This is for entertainment and to make you think.

I remember Fox did a pretty interesting show about the conspiracy theory that we never landed on the moon. Things such as why do you see ripples going different ways in the flag, when there isn't any sort of wind in space, etc. I also saw one on cable about Elvis still being alive. I am personally entertained by that sort of material. I just put it here for those with a bunch of spare time to mess around with. Also, the Paul McCartney being dead was interesting!

JWsleep · 06-27-2004, 02:57 AM

C'mon. The Lincoln-Kennedy thing, Elvis, the moon thing, are in a totally different class. The 9-11 conspiracy question is a current, crucial political and moral debate concerning who murdered thousands of Americans. It's like saying you saw this funny white-power website where they showed that the concentration camp photos and newsreels were staged. It's not some funny thing. It's not interesting in the sense you intend.

And, look, I know from other posts you've put up that you are politcally very aware and active. Just bringing this stuff to the table potentially discredits your views on other issues.

I completely understand that you don't believe it. But I also suspect that you brougt it up not so much because of the conspiracy/entertainment angle as that it has to do with current politics. What sort of discussion were you hoping to provoke? I'm anti-Bush, and if I didn't catch your entertainment vibe here, I'm skeptical that it's having the right effect.

skinsfanthru&thru · 06-27-2004, 03:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daseal

JWSleep - have you read anything I typed? Every single time I said I thought it was an interesting read, but I also said I didn't believe it.

Personally I love conspiracy theories and enjoy reading about them. I know people, republican and democratic that went at this with an open mind and asked some questions. I'm not going to go off and said this happened, but it is an interesting read. I was up late one night and I was reading about the parrallels between Lincoln and Kennedy assassinations (which is kind of crazy, there are about 15 parallels), then a friend sent me an illuminati link, which then led me to this. I find it interesting to read, I don't hold water to it. This is for entertainment and to make you think.

I remember Fox did a pretty interesting show about the conspiracy theory that we never landed on the moon. Things such as why do you see ripples going different ways in the flag, when there isn't any sort of wind in space, etc. I also saw one on cable about Elvis still being alive. I am personally entertained by that sort of material. I just put it here for those with a bunch of spare time to mess around with. Also, the Paul McCartney being dead was interesting!

I two like thinking about and discussing some conspiracy theories but not to the point where the given theory is pretty much insulting to the intelligence of the reader or viewer. plus making up conspiracy theories that obviously have no real basis or facts behind it and that are about very sensitive topics just seems very innapropriate and demeaning to those with a personal connection to the theory.

i know this wasn't the consp. theory meant for the origin of the thread but has anyone watched the behind the music thing on the Notorious BIG? its kinda creepy that all the evidence pointed to a former officer and his best friend, but yet the LA's sheriff office wouldn't let the investigating officer follow through the investigation into the forementioned officer.

That Guy · 06-27-2004, 03:50 AM

daseal, the problem i think, it that its on a very very slanted anti-bush site, which is using it as a propaganda piece, not entertainment, so the context in which the conspiracy is set just reeks horribly of tunnel vision.

I understand you don't believe it, but JWsleep does make some good points worth listening to.

and i could care less who's liberal/conservative etc, as long as they listen instead of yell, conversation is possible.

That Guy · 06-27-2004, 03:53 AM

sorry i don't follow rap, but yeah, i figure either the sheriff thought it was a waste of time/too unlikely, or he wanted to cover shody police work... both make more sense than a true cover up, but i wasn't there, so you never know...

Daseal · 06-27-2004, 03:36 PM

Well, honestly I was expecting the same reaction from the people I sent it to before. Both republican based and democratic based. I didn't post this with any sort of political beliefs in the way. I like to read about conspiracy theories, and I know others are in the same boat. Everyone I sent it to over AIM (about 5 people) read through it and thought it was interesting. The thing is they didn't automatically assume I had some sort of other motive forcing me to post it.

If any of you read it, they make interesting points about turning the lawn into a huge mid/gravel pit after just two days, which isn't nearly enough time to look through wreckage, etc. I just find it interesting. If you don't, that's fine. However, that site also has plenty of conservative and non-partisan links. That site is filled with links, not so much information. Sure, there are more liberal links than conservative, but they represent both sides, and I feel very well.

I simply found it interesting and didn't mean to upset everyone. The most interesting thing was the list of the people on the flight. Not a single person with muslim ties, at least that we knew about. Little things like that interest me. Take it for what you will, I only meant it for people to waste time with like I did.

06-26-2004, 12:14 AM	#1
Daseal Puppy Kicker Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Arlington, Virginia Age: 41 Posts: 8,341	Spare time? Try conspiracy theories! Maybe I'm behind the curve, but a friend just sent me some links about the flight 77 into the Pentagon being a fake. I'll let you guys decide, they make some interesting points. http://www.newsfollowup.com/flight77.htm make your own decesion.

06-26-2004, 01:40 AM	#2
JWsleep Propane and propane accessories Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Houston, TX Age: 55 Posts: 4,719	Wow. If you want to discredit us on the left, keep posting BS like this. Nonesense like this helps Bush win. __________________ Hail from Houston!

06-26-2004, 08:02 AM	#6
That Guy Living Legend Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: VA Age: 42 Posts: 17,553	sample of some of the dean links: American Arab Institute Dean greeted warmly by Arab Americans Blacks for Dean Dean supporters, info Switch to Dean independents, greens +, switch to Dean Punx for Dean changing America, one punk at a time. meanwhile, the bush links: 525 Reasons to Dump Bush.com Bushspeaks top patriotic anti-bush site BoycottBush.net target companies that bankroll Bush...global warming In These Times, Bush, Bin Laden Family ties I mean, come on, how can this be taking seriously at all, with such an obvious agenda to push?

06-26-2004, 03:49 PM	#9
JWsleep Propane and propane accessories Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Houston, TX Age: 55 Posts: 4,719	Sorry, Daseal, but I spend a lot of time defending myself and my liberal beliefs against my more conservative friends and relatives, and they are always running at me with this "loony left" label. So when my fellow anti-bush folk, like yourself, even bring this sort of thing up, it pushes my buttons. A conspiricy of this magnitude is, well, off the chart implausible. Just consider the number of poeple that have to be in on it. And consider how sophisticated it must be. Do you really think such a thing could go on in our government? I don't mean because of their noble character or anything, I just mean, do you really think they could do this, logistically and strategically? Here's another hypothesis: on September 11th, al Queda opertatives, under opertational orders from Kahlid Sheik Mohammed, hijacked 4 planes, crashed 2 of them into the WTC, one into the pentagon, and the other crashed in PA when the people on board resisted. They did this to further the worldwide aims of their organization: to rid the middle east of non-muslims, to assert sharia law throughout the region, and to overcome what they see as the enemies of Islam. This includes many current Arab regeims that are seen as pro-Western: Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan. Morocco, etc. The hijakings served to stirke at the American enemy in his homeland, to destabilize the world situation, particularly with regard to the middle east, and to generate support for al Queda through publicity. There is considerable evidence for this hypothesis, and it must be ruled out before alternatives are embraced. Bringing this rival conspiricay view into the conversation serves to discredit those who even consider it. I mean that. If you are not already talking to those who are SO anti-Bush, anti-Military, anti-Globalization, etc. that they've departed from the conversation already, people are just going to label you a nut, and ignore what you are saying from now on, even if your later comments make sense. Do you really want to undermine yourself (not to mention your allies against Bush, like myself) in this way? From a dialectic point of view, from a political point of view, and from a stragtegic point of view, bringing this hypothesis into the debate is an error. I am in no way endorsing censorship; rather, I am arguing that, if a hypothesis is so outlandish that it is irrational to support it, you will appear irrational, and thus irrelvant to future debate, if you intoroduce it into the conversation. Finally, imagine that the standard hypothesis is true. Then bringing the rival view up is very troubling, because it deflects the proper moral blame from the real criminals. It's a little like saying "hey, maybe Hitler didn't kill the jews." This is very different, Gmanc, from bringing up Tupac or the Moon stuff. It is WAY more morally loaded, in part because of the horrific results of this act, and in part because it risks deflecting blame (and perhaps even aiding the casue of) the terrorists who did this. It's not like speculating if Suge really did in Tupac; it's a different kind of thing. Given that this is a skins site, I bet we all have friends, family, maybe even ourselves, who were in downtown DC that day; maybe we even lost people (both That Guy and Skinsfan have already said they had people at risk). Those planes were aimed at us. One of the longest days of my life was waiting to hear from my sister, who was working downtown that day. It's not idle specualtion to wonder if maybe al Queda didn't do it; it's not even interesting, I think. It's morally suspect, given the circumstances, and politcally damaging. PS Despite that, I'm not angry angry that the issue was raised. I love debating these topics, because I think that's how wisdom is generated, and MAN, do we need some wisdom at this point in history. I just think it's important to consider the consequences of bringing this idea up, because the stakes are VERY high. __________________ Hail from Houston!

06-27-2004, 02:57 AM	#11
JWsleep Propane and propane accessories Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Houston, TX Age: 55 Posts: 4,719	C'mon. The Lincoln-Kennedy thing, Elvis, the moon thing, are in a totally different class. The 9-11 conspiracy question is a current, crucial political and moral debate concerning who murdered thousands of Americans. It's like saying you saw this funny white-power website where they showed that the concentration camp photos and newsreels were staged. It's not some funny thing. It's not interesting in the sense you intend. And, look, I know from other posts you've put up that you are politcally very aware and active. Just bringing this stuff to the table potentially discredits your views on other issues. I completely understand that you don't believe it. But I also suspect that you brougt it up not so much because of the conspiracy/entertainment angle as that it has to do with current politics. What sort of discussion were you hoping to provoke? I'm anti-Bush, and if I didn't catch your entertainment vibe here, I'm skeptical that it's having the right effect. __________________ Hail from Houston!

06-26-2004, 07:13 AM	#3
Daseal Puppy Kicker Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Arlington, Virginia Age: 41 Posts: 8,341	JWsleep - I didn't say I believed it, and I also read primarily the conservative side and a few links on the liberal side. I just said it's a bit interesting. I posted this for people to waste time for. I do find it interesting that they haven't provided any videos near like they did for the WTC. You think the Pentagon doesn't have constant survalliance? There were over 5 buildings with cameras that should have been in the 757's flight path, yet all we have is a 4 second clip from a security checkpoint fairly far away that seems to be missing a few frames. As I said, do I believe it? I don't think it holds much water. Is it interesting? I think so.

06-26-2004, 07:35 AM	#4
Gmanc711 Thank You, Sean. Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Gaithersburg, MD Age: 39 Posts: 7,506	Yeah , Ease off Dasel. Theres lot of stuff like that, which really get me going. Like the TuPac theroies, and the theroy that we never landed on the moon. None of it is proboly true, but its all very interesting and makes you think.

06-26-2004, 07:58 AM	#5
That Guy Living Legend Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: VA Age: 42 Posts: 17,553	i live 15 miles from the pentagon, i know plenty of people that saw it firsthand, i watched them rebuild it... look at the site, its got bush watch with 500 anti-bush links and a howard dean section which only links to stories of how great he is and how much people like him... its a horribly biased site. its not interesting, its pointless crap. and btw, 1 + 1 = 25, makes you think doesn't it, i mean, what if??

06-26-2004, 01:10 PM	#7
skinsfanthru&thru Playmaker Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Richmond, VA Age: 44 Posts: 3,813	it's sites like that one that r pretty much pissing on the graves of those who 've died. My uncle was working near wear the plane hit and luckily was not only able to get himself out but was also able to help others out. I couldn't read more than a couple paragraphs of that guys garbage. it's just sad that people like this, with the iq of a rock, r out there and they r actually making people wonder "what really happened." I don't know who to feel more sorry for.

06-26-2004, 01:57 PM	#8
That Guy Living Legend Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: VA Age: 42 Posts: 17,553	my dad actually worked in the offices that got completely demolished at the pentagon, but he retired (after 30 years) on sept 1st, 2001... lucky me.

06-26-2004, 09:59 PM	#10
Daseal Puppy Kicker Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Arlington, Virginia Age: 41 Posts: 8,341	JWSleep - have you read anything I typed? Every single time I said I thought it was an interesting read, but I also said I didn't believe it. Personally I love conspiracy theories and enjoy reading about them. I know people, republican and democratic that went at this with an open mind and asked some questions. I'm not going to go off and said this happened, but it is an interesting read. I was up late one night and I was reading about the parrallels between Lincoln and Kennedy assassinations (which is kind of crazy, there are about 15 parallels), then a friend sent me an illuminati link, which then led me to this. I find it interesting to read, I don't hold water to it. This is for entertainment and to make you think. I remember Fox did a pretty interesting show about the conspiracy theory that we never landed on the moon. Things such as why do you see ripples going different ways in the flag, when there isn't any sort of wind in space, etc. I also saw one on cable about Elvis still being alive. I am personally entertained by that sort of material. I just put it here for those with a bunch of spare time to mess around with. Also, the Paul McCartney being dead was interesting!

06-27-2004, 03:50 AM	#13
That Guy Living Legend Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: VA Age: 42 Posts: 17,553	daseal, the problem i think, it that its on a very very slanted anti-bush site, which is using it as a propaganda piece, not entertainment, so the context in which the conspiracy is set just reeks horribly of tunnel vision. I understand you don't believe it, but JWsleep does make some good points worth listening to. and i could care less who's liberal/conservative etc, as long as they listen instead of yell, conversation is possible.

06-27-2004, 03:53 AM	#14
That Guy Living Legend Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: VA Age: 42 Posts: 17,553	sorry i don't follow rap, but yeah, i figure either the sheriff thought it was a waste of time/too unlikely, or he wanted to cover shody police work... both make more sense than a true cover up, but i wasn't there, so you never know...

06-27-2004, 03:36 PM	#15
Daseal Puppy Kicker Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Arlington, Virginia Age: 41 Posts: 8,341	Well, honestly I was expecting the same reaction from the people I sent it to before. Both republican based and democratic based. I didn't post this with any sort of political beliefs in the way. I like to read about conspiracy theories, and I know others are in the same boat. Everyone I sent it to over AIM (about 5 people) read through it and thought it was interesting. The thing is they didn't automatically assume I had some sort of other motive forcing me to post it. If any of you read it, they make interesting points about turning the lawn into a huge mid/gravel pit after just two days, which isn't nearly enough time to look through wreckage, etc. I just find it interesting. If you don't, that's fine. However, that site also has plenty of conservative and non-partisan links. That site is filled with links, not so much information. Sure, there are more liberal links than conservative, but they represent both sides, and I feel very well. I simply found it interesting and didn't mean to upset everyone. The most interesting thing was the list of the people on the flight. Not a single person with muslim ties, at least that we knew about. Little things like that interest me. Take it for what you will, I only meant it for people to waste time with like I did.

Spare time? Try conspiracy theories!

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