F... Kool-Aid

[Schneed10]

This debate, raging amongst several threads, over optimism vs pessimism, over idealism vs realism, over Kool-Aid vs Haterade, is making me sick to my stomach. It's juvenile, and frankly something I'd expect to find at Extreme.

If you're an optimist, that's great. At heart, we all are, because our love for the team drives us to hope for the best. In our heads however, I don't think there's a one of us who doesn't have doubts.

This goofy Kool-Aid vs Haterade thing is all about the battle between your heart and your head. So how about this: a return to intelligent debate at The Warpath.

In this thread, I'd like to hear LOGICAL and RATIONAL arguments for things like:

- Why we'll make the playoffs
- How we'll make the playoffs
- Why and/or how we'll beat the Cowboys
- How we'll make up for injured players

I don't want to see any opinions in this thread that look like this:

I believe Jason Campbell will have a great game, for some reason. [If you can't point to a reason, your belief holds no water. Remember, this is the thread where we return to KNOWLEDGEABLE discussion. No discussion based on belief allowed.]

And nothing looking like this:

I think we'll beat the Cowboys because I want us to beat the Cowboys. No S, Sherlock. Of course we all want to beat the Cowboys. But what we want (or said differently, hope for) is not the same thing as what we THINK.

Come on Warpath, restore my faith in you. Make rational arguments, stop questioning each other's fanhood, and get back to relevant discussion. I challenge the optimists among us to give rational reasoning for why we have cause to be optimistic. This way, we might look at this thread and actually have something meaningful to get excited about.

[MTRedskinsFan]

Jeez man, it's Friday night and you should take it easy. Make yourself a drink, apologize to her, and tomorrow morning the sun will rise.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by MTRedskinsFan

Jeez man, it's Friday night and you should take it easy. Make yourself a drink, apologize to her, and tomorrow morning the sun will rise.

And we're off to a marvelous start.

[MTRedskinsFan]

What are you, a flight-traffic controller or something?

[MTRedskinsFan]

How about this:

JC will have a great game if Gibbs/Saunders put the ball in his hands like last week. He is ready to assume those responsibilities on a regular basis and his playcalling, based on what little history we have, is more dynamic (really I mean less predictable). JC will have a constrained, ineffective game if SOMEBODY else calls the plays.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by MTRedskinsFan

How about this:

JC will have a great game if Gibbs/Saunders put the ball in his hands like last week. He is ready to assume those responsibilities on a regular basis and his playcalling, based on what little history we have, is more dynamic (really I mean less predictable). JC will have a constrained, ineffective game if SOMEBODY else calls the plays.

Thanks for the meaningful comment. I agree with you that the offensive staff should continue to trust Campbell to run a hurry-up and open up the offense. But keep in mind that even though they trusted Campbell fully against the Eagles, we still lost. And now we face a much better team. Campbell having a great game isn't the end-all be-all to a W. Though it would be a darn good step.

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

This debate, raging amongst several threads, over optimism vs pessimism, over idealism vs realism, over Kool-Aid vs Haterade, is making me sick to my stomach. It's juvenile, and frankly something I'd expect to find at Extreme.

If you're an optimist, that's great. At heart, we all are, because our love for the team drives us to hope for the best. In our heads however, I don't think there's a one of us who doesn't have doubts.

This goofy Kool-Aid vs Haterade thing is all about the battle between your heart and your head. So how about this: a return to intelligent debate at The Warpath.

In this thread, I'd like to hear LOGICAL and RATIONAL arguments for things like:

- Why we'll make the playoffs
- How we'll make the playoffs
- Why and/or how we'll beat the Cowboys
- How we'll make up for injured players

I don't want to see any opinions in this thread that look like this:

I believe Jason Campbell will have a great game, for some reason. [If you can't point to a reason, your belief holds no water. Remember, this is the thread where we return to KNOWLEDGEABLE discussion. No discussion based on belief allowed.]

And nothing looking like this:

I think we'll beat the Cowboys because I want us to beat the Cowboys. No S, Sherlock. Of course we all want to beat the Cowboys. But what we want (or said differently, hope for) is not the same thing as what we THINK.

Come on Warpath, restore my faith in you. Make rational arguments, stop questioning each other's fanhood, and get back to relevant discussion. I challenge the optimists among us to give rational reasoning for why we have cause to be optimistic. This way, we might look at this thread and actually have something meaningful to get excited about.

How is one to have a rational debate about a future event that hasn't even taken place with some many different variables at play? Namely, "I believe" Jason Campbell will have a good game? The very words, "I believe" should indicate that there aren't many facts to back it up in the first place. It's part gut and part hope. And if that's the case, what's so wrong about that?

Furthermore, every thread isn't more or less legitimate because it's perceived to be rational or irrational. Tell me, what's rational about a guy driving two hours, mingling through traffic, going to a parking lot full of strangers and cooking on grill in sub-zero temperatures? Then getting in a long ass line for another 45 minutes to get inside a huge arena with thousands of strangers to yell his or her lungs out in the freezing cold for the next three hours? Then coming home to, walk pass the dog, ignore the wife, log onto his/her computer to arugue, cry, bitch or moan with some guys/gals they've never met one day in their life? If you can explain that to me, I'll give you hard core facts as to why Jason Campbell will throw for 300 yrds Sunday against the Cowboys.

The only thing or event anyone can predict with certainty is the weather. And even that with all the instruments, aparatus, and expertise involved is 50/50 a lot of the times.

[MTRedskinsFan]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Thanks for the meaningful comment. I agree with you that the offensive staff should continue to trust Campbell to run a hurry-up and open up the offense. But keep in mind that even though they trusted Campbell fully against the Eagles, we still lost. And now we face a much better team. Campbell having a great game isn't the end-all be-all to a W. Though it would be a darn good step.

Notice I didn't say anything about a W (personally, I hate the guy :screama). Putting the ball in JC's hands should give us far better offensive production, as it did last Sunday. But the defense has to play 4 qtrs of intense ball to give as any shot at a W. Something they did not do last Sunday.

Which leads me to this thought:

Landry played FS in college and was very dangerous. W/ Taylor out would it make sense to throw Landry back there? I bring it up because Praylow did not look effective as GW's center fielder, but he has looked very sharp coming in for Landry at SS. I could see Landry in center field because he's very fast and probably makes TO more nervous than Praylow would as FS, and Praylow taking over at SS. I've been thinking about this since Sunday and it just keeps making more sense. Landry was so effective at FS his senior year opposing QBs rarely threw deep on LSU.

[SmootSmack]

Why isn't this thread called F...The Haters? Why is there this assumption that those that have a reasonably optimistic outlook have no grasp of logic and rationality? Besides isn't a big part of being a fan having hope? How about we challenge the pessimists who come on here saying we won't win another game to explain rationally why they think that?

Will we make the playoffs? I'm not sure. I worry about a "trap game" like the Bears or Bills screwing us over. If we do make it, and I think we have a good shot, I think we'll make the playoffs by building off our accomplishments from last Sunday. The running game has to be our foundation. As long as that's strong it will allow our passing game to open up. If we don't make it, it will be because we will continue to end drives with field goals instead of touchdowns.

Making up for Sean Taylor is really the only injured player I'm worried about making up for, and it worries me quite a bit. He is arguably our most important player. He simply can't be replaced. I really don't know how Williams and Gray will scheme without him (by the way, did I hear Smoot might play Safety??). It is, in my opinion, our biggest obstacle over these next two or whatever weeks.

How will we beat the Cowboys? First of all, we have to play mistake free. No crippling penalties. If we lose, let it be because they beat us not that we beat ourselves. Secondly, we have to keep the ball out of Romo's hands so we'll need long, control the clock drives. But we also have to take some chances down the field. Test Roy Williams pass defense.

[JWsleep]

We will make the playoffs (or better: we could make the playoffs) because:

The crucial games in our schedule are AFTER this Dallas game. It is not a must win. We need to take TB on the road, IMO. That's the biggie. After that, two tough but winnable games AT HOME: buffalo and Chicago. That, if we can pull it off, takes us to 8 wins. Then, maybe, one more win gets us in. We've got NY and Minn on the road, and Dallas at home, and in all probability, Dallas is resting it's starters and Thomas and ST are back. And even if we blow TB or Buf or Chi, we could take Minn on the road and Dallas at home. That's 9 wins. May not be enough, but a reasonable scenario that does not require either wins at Dallas or NY.

Further, and this is what made the losses so painful, we were very close in several of them. On offense, I think we have not peaked yet. We need Moss to get going, and JC and Portis to stay hot, but this is a better O then we've seen in 3 years of Gibbs II. It hasn't become consistent yet, but really, a reasonable assessment shows that this is true.

The key is also on how well GW and co can hold things together. They will need to earn their money. How soon ST returns is very important, obviously. But it's not crazy to think GW can shift things and hide things. Plus, with any luck, he learned from last year's debacle what he cannot do. We'll see.

About the cowroids--I am not optimistic, but here's the recipe for winning: One, ball control to limit plays of the Dallas o. And you MUST score TDs at the end of long drives--TOP alone means very little with this high-powered Dallas O. So, again, CP is going to have to put up the numbers. But it's also time for a few big play TDs--we are SO due. On D, we are going to have to have some luck, IMO. If we can get a few turnovers, in whatever way, that will be big. Romo has his off days. Maybe this will be one. If the stars align this way, it could happen.

About injuries: ST is of course the killer. PP has to play WAY better. LL will be in coverage more. Smoot and Springs have to have amazing games. And the nickle CBs have to step up. On WR, hopefully Moss will have some miraculous "I'm in Dallas" moments, ARE will thrive, and KMac will keep showing why he's a quality player. And COOLEY must produce--he's done well against Dallas before.

None of this is koolaid--it's just an appraisal of what we need to do, and what we could do. I am pessimistic about Dallas in Dallas, given the level of their play right now. But I think things could work out--TB is a much bigger deal, IMO.

QED

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Why isn't this thread called F...The Haters? Why is there this assumption that those that have a reasonably optimistic outlook have no grasp of logic and rationality?

Because, to this point, the overly optimistic crowd has not been able to produce much in the way of hows or whys when making their claims that we'll still make the playoffs. In many threads, they're refusing to consider reality and simply allowing their hopes to govern their discussion here. I'd grown tired of those threads, so I started this one. And thanks to a few great posts (especially by JWSleep IMO), there's actually some rationality backing up the optimistic view.

If we're going to simply talk about our beliefs for what will happen with the team, we don't have much to talk about. The debate goes "I believe A." "Oh yeah, well I believe B. What makes you think A is right?" I dunno, I just believe A is going to happen. Why is B so great? I just believe it."

Not much going on in that discussion.

This isn't to say I don't have optimism. I posted a thread earlier saying how we need to come out and get extremely intense and physical with Dallas, and that gives us a fighting chance. I also agree that a loss here by no means knocks us out of the playoff picture. I also agree that Tampa is a VERY pivotal game.

Just thought it would be nice to get some real discussion going and get away from the bickering over kool-aid vs haterade, that's all.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Because, to this point, the overly optimistic crowd has not been able to produce much in the way of hows or whys when making their claims that we'll still make the playoffs. In many threads, they're refusing to consider reality and simply allowing their hopes to govern their discussion here. I'd grown tired of those threads, so I started this one. And thanks to a few great posts (especially by JWSleep IMO), there's actually some rationality backing up the optimistic view.

And the "haterade" drinkers have been churning out rational, coherent, and persuasive arguments? I don't know about you, but I've read an awful lot of "Gibbs be the worresest coach in the leeg," "the Redskins couldnt beet a hi-school teem," etc.

I've seen similar posts from some of the "overly optimistic crowd." On the whole, however, I think the overly optimistic crowd has been coming up with good arguments as to why we will make the playoffs. For example, people have gone into a fair amount of detail as to how our remaining schedule will play out, how other NFC contenders' schedules will play out, talked about our offensive line starting to gel, etc.

[Sammy Baugh Fan]

I won't respond to this thread other than to say the fact that you are "F'ing" Redskins fans of any type or so called reason is wrong. IMHO

During Dallas week yer gonna take my time to read about F'ing Redskins fans? F... THAT!

Wanna be a hater? Try hating Dallas instead of other Redskins fans

peace out
mike

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

And the "haterade" drinkers have been churning out rational, coherent, and persuasive arguments? I don't know about you, but I've read an awful lot of "Gibbs be the worresest coach in the leeg," "the Redskins couldnt beet a hi-school teem," etc.

You're right, we can leave that crap at the door, too.

[dmek25]

i want to reply, but am afraid to for not giving the right answers. well, i think the skins offense over the last 2 games has been fine. the running game has really started to work. and Campbell is starting to look like a very good qback. after watching some film of Gibbs one, its time for the coaching staff to step up, and let it rip. take an interception( or 2) for some long pass plays down the field. that will open up the running game even more. lets go to attack mode instead of the passive, lets play not to lose mode. if we stay aggressive, for some reason that carries over to the defense. and while we will miss Taylor, Prioleau is a more then adequate back up. lets at least try to win, and not go quietly. to me, this is a key game in the redskins season. not so much as needing to win. but as much as setting the tone.