A Different Take on the Redskins Personnel Strategy

[Drift Reality]

I've been participating in several of the threads in this forum pertaining to the Redskins personnel strategy in '08 and discussions on what they should do in '09 and have noticed a very negative tenor to many of the perspectives on what the Redskins have done since Gibbs left.

Much of the criticism has been leveled at the Redskins usage of their three second round picks and the commensurate lack of youth and depth along both their offensive and defensive lines.

I would like to throw out the possibility that at the beginning of the 2008 season, the Redskins made a conscientious decision that '08 would be a transitional year and their personnel approach is a reflection on this. I believe this decision was made for several reasons.

1. First, they understood that many key personnel were aging. Remember, when Gibbs first arrived they had a three-year plan in place. Consequently you saw them go out and get guys who were already in their prime. Zorn's first year would really mark the end of that window and I believe that the Redskins front office understood the limitations of their current personnel due to age.
2. Secondly, I believe they understood that Zorn would be installing a new offense that would take at least one year for this group and this quarterback to master. The one area where they lacked depth was at receiver and consequently they saw an opportunity to bolster depth in this area. Furthermore, they knew that their offense was not going to perform for a year anyway so the draft was a good way to address this area because most personnel guys will tell you that it takes several years for receivers to mature. Don't let Cerrato fool you either - teams most certainly do draft for need and I think you saw that in their '08 draft.

Based on these considerations I believe they drafted in preparation for '09 or '10, after which point in time their receivers would have matured and their offense would be in rhythm. The early success however was a surprise and it was probably both a blessing and curse because it inflated our expectations for a team that was most certainly in transition.

So what we have now is a team that is still going through a transitional phase. This coming off-season I would expect to see turnover in at least two or three key positions where veterans are replaced with either current personnel or acquisitions. I think that Springs is probably gone (unless he is willing to renegotiate) as well as Daniels and maybe even Marcus Washington.

In free agency, I would also expect them to pick-up at least defensive lineman., a linebacker, and possibly an offensive lineman as well although I do believe that they think they are strong at LT, C and RG going into '09. Along the defensive line it's hard to imagine them going for a guy like Peppers or Haynesworth (if these guys are even available) however a guy like Canty would help bolster their line and allow them to get more creative with Carter and Taylor (if Taylor returns). At linebacker a guy like Suggs could fill a huge void at outside linebacker and could also help provide a guy capable of rushing the passer.

In the draft I would expect them to look for an opportunity to acquire players along their o-line as well as defensive front seven.

All that being said, I believe they made the following mistakes in '08:

1. First, they panicked when Daniels and Buzbee went down early in camp and acquired an aging veteran in Jason Taylor in exchange for a second round pick. This was certainly a panic move that brought back bad memories of the Duckett trade and doesn't make sense in the context of a three-year plan.
2. Second, I believe they became greedy when Fred Davis (who I would guess they projected as a first rounder) became available with their second round pick. This pick just makes no sense with the personnel they currently have in place and could have been better applied to address the lack of youth and talent along the O-line and defensive front seven.

Overall however, I think they are going to be well positioned going into 2009 with younger, more athletic players along their defensive front seven and offensive line and an offense that has one year in the system (as well as two receivers who are ready to become contributors in '09).

[dan_snyder69]

good post, i've been thinking exactly the same way (give the receivers time to build a foundation for the offense, as o-lines are easier to put together w/ the right talent.) the only thing i disagree w/ is that the fred davis pick was a mistake. he's gonna be a player either for us or someone else. if it's for us, then great, we will have a mean 2 tight end formation. If it's for someone else, hopefully we will be well compensated in a trade (even though that might be difficult, unless he shows well next preseason/season)

[The Goat]

Well said Drift. In short you seem to be saying we're just a few additions away from being a complete, competitive team (assuming the WR corp develops and Zorn continues to make JC a better QB), and while I don't know if that is the consensus among fans I do believe many of us are of similar mind. Infusions of young talent along the o-line, OLB and d-line will do wonders for this team.

[SBXVII]

I really don't mean to sound like a butthole....but are you not saying the same things we all have been saying all along? At the begginning many said it was not going to be a "rebuilding" year but a transitional year cause the team had to learn a new offense. Many said the team would be 8-8 or 9-7. I myself always predict high at my wonderful 10-6. Although a lot of fans wanted lineman there were others such as myself who said we needed taller WR's. We got them. Many said don't expect to much from them cause it usually takes 2-3 yrs for a rookie WR to learn how to play in the pros. Which is why I wanted CJ. but I'm happy to have two young WR's for our future.

Many said the lines were to old and the average age was 29. We need youth. younger faster healthier linemen on both sides of the ball.

Many said including myself that it would take atleast 2-3 yrs to learn a new offense. Many of us have been slamming Zorn for his lack of putting the new guys on the field but every once in a while we hear how one of the rookies was supposed to zig and they zagged or basically went the wrong way or to deep or not deep enough. which basically proves Zorn was right when saying the rookies don't have all the plays down. Now the question is who's fault is it. or is there any possible way instead of giving them the whole play book and saying learn it the team could have given them 10 or 20 plays a piece and told them to learn them inside and out. Then inserted them periodically to use those plays.

...again not to be a butthole but all this was said and expected, but for what ever reason our high expectations got the better of us along with the teams success. but there are things I'm not seeing that worry me. ...Like Zorn not adjusting during games or during the season when teams figured out what he was doing and tried to counter it ,successfully I might add. Will Zorn give us more of the same...here's my game plan win lose or draw I'm sticking with it or will he learn to adjust during games?

[rbanerjee23]

good post...no doubt that the early success was all a smokescreen, i think zorn has done a decent job of taking this team to a possible 8-8/9-7 finish. To everyone who thinks this was a playoff team because of what he inherited, look again. They were riding the emotion of losing Sean Taylor and were handily beaten by the currently 5-10 Seahawks...
The skins need to draft a linebacker, and completely revamp the o line. Jansen is done, Rabach is close, and even Samuels was easily handled by Ware (watch the tape, its pathetic). Devin Thomas and Malcolm Kelly were not going to produce in their first year...that was a given, The Fred Davis pick was a mistake, Calais Campbell or Phillip Merling was available and that would have been more productive than throwing a ton of money at Jason Taylor who has been a bust (by his own admission).
That said, here's hoping the necessary adjustments are made and the 2009 season is a success.

[The Goat]

Originally Posted by rbanerjee23

good post...no doubt that the early success was all a smokescreen, i think zorn has done a decent job of taking this team to a possible 8-8/9-7 finish. To everyone who thinks this was a playoff team because of what he inherited, look again. They were riding the emotion of losing Sean Taylor and were handily beaten by the currently 5-10 Seahawks...
The skins need to draft a linebacker, and completely revamp the o line. Jansen is done, Rabach is close, and even Samuels was easily handled by Ware (watch the tape, its pathetic). Devin Thomas and Malcolm Kelly were not going to produce in their first year...that was a given, The Fred Davis pick was a mistake, Calais Campbell or Phillip Merling was available and that would have been more productive than throwing a ton of money at Jason Taylor who has been a bust (by his own admission).
That said, here's hoping the necessary adjustments are made and the 2009 season is a success.

I don't really buy Campbell or Merling would have been upgrades over Evans and/or Carter. Taylor had the worst season of his career and while we clearly gave up too much for him, I believe he'll be an impact player next year. As i've said in other threads, there is no way the Jason Taylor wants to end his career on a low note. He'll come back next year and I feel confident predicting him to me a monster again. Also Thomas or Kelly look to be the superfluous pick (remains to be seen which)... I tend to think Davis will have success here because Yoder is on his way out and Davis brings tremendous ability after the catch.

[Sonny9TD]

Originally Posted by Drift Reality

I've been participating in several of the threads in this forum pertaining to the Redskins personnel strategy in '08 and discussions on what they should do in '09 and have noticed a very negative tenor to many of the perspectives on what the Redskins have done since Gibbs left.

Much of the criticism has been leveled at the Redskins usage of their three second round picks and the commensurate lack of youth and depth along both their offensive and defensive lines.

I would like to throw out the possibility that at the beginning of the 2008 season, the Redskins made a conscientious decision that '08 would be a transitional year and their personnel approach is a reflection on this. I believe this decision was made for several reasons.

1. First, they understood that many key personnel were aging. Remember, when Gibbs first arrived they had a three-year plan in place. Consequently you saw them go out and get guys who were already in their prime. Zorn's first year would really mark the end of that window and I believe that the Redskins front office understood the limitations of their current personnel due to age.
2. Secondly, I believe they understood that Zorn would be installing a new offense that would take at least one year for this group and this quarterback to master. The one area where they lacked depth was at receiver and consequently they saw an opportunity to bolster depth in this area. Furthermore, they knew that their offense was not going to perform for a year anyway so the draft was a good way to address this area because most personnel guys will tell you that it takes several years for receivers to mature. Don't let Cerrato fool you either - teams most certainly do draft for need and I think you saw that in their '08 draft.

Based on these considerations I believe they drafted in preparation for '09 or '10, after which point in time their receivers would have matured and their offense would be in rhythm. The early success however was a surprise and it was probably both a blessing and curse because it inflated our expectations for a team that was most certainly in transition.

So what we have now is a team that is still going through a transitional phase. This coming off-season I would expect to see turnover in at least two or three key positions where veterans are replaced with either current personnel or acquisitions. I think that Springs is probably gone (unless he is willing to renegotiate) as well as Daniels and maybe even Marcus Washington.

In free agency, I would also expect them to pick-up at least defensive lineman., a linebacker, and possibly an offensive lineman as well although I do believe that they think they are strong at LT, C and RG going into '09. Along the defensive line it's hard to imagine them going for a guy like Peppers or Haynesworth (if these guys are even available) however a guy like Canty would help bolster their line and allow them to get more creative with Carter and Taylor (if Taylor returns). At linebacker a guy like Suggs could fill a huge void at outside linebacker and could also help provide a guy capable of rushing the passer.

In the draft I would expect them to look for an opportunity to acquire players along their o-line as well as defensive front seven.

All that being said, I believe they made the following mistakes in '08:

1. First, they panicked when Daniels and Buzbee went down early in camp and acquired an aging veteran in Jason Taylor in exchange for a second round pick. This was certainly a panic move that brought back bad memories of the Duckett trade and doesn't make sense in the context of a three-year plan.
2. Second, I believe they became greedy when Fred Davis (who I would guess they projected as a first rounder) became available with their second round pick. This pick just makes no sense with the personnel they currently have in place and could have been better applied to address the lack of youth and talent along the O-line and defensive front seven.

Overall however, I think they are going to be well positioned going into 2009 with younger, more athletic players along their defensive front seven and offensive line and an offense that has one year in the system (as well as two receivers who are ready to become contributors in '09).

I concur.

[memphisskin]

Originally Posted by The Goat

I don't really buy Campbell or Merling would have been upgrades over Evans and/or Carter. Taylor had the worst season of his career and while we clearly gave up too much for him, I believe he'll be an impact player next year. As i've said in other threads, there is no way the Jason Taylor wants to end his career on a low note. He'll come back next year and I feel confident predicting him to me a monster again. Also Thomas or Kelly look to be the superfluous pick (remains to be seen which)... I tend to think Davis will have success here because Yoder is on his way out and Davis brings tremendous ability after the catch.

Good point about Thomas and Kelly, it really does seem like Cerrato was hedging his bets at wideout by picking both of them. I was not on board with the Davis pick and even though I like him as a player and think he will be great for us down the line, it still doesn't make sense. You don't draft a second TE when you 1) have a young Pro Bowler already on your roster and 2) have such glaring needs in other spots, such as O-line.

The problem I see with our personnel strategy is that we are trying to be sexy. Snyder and Cerrato have made a ton of moves over time, trading up and trading down, but outside of Sean Taylor they haven't really drafted or brought in an elite guy. It seems they want to make sexy and splashy picks, trading out of the first round a year ago makes them seem engaged but having none of your second round picks make an impact shows something else. We concentrate our resources on the perimeter and try to "make do" with stopgaps on the line.

[backrow]

Originally Posted by Drift Reality

I've been participating in several of the threads in this forum pertaining to the Redskins personnel strategy in '08 and discussions on what they should do in '09 and have noticed a very negative tenor to many of the perspectives on what the Redskins have done since Gibbs left.

Much of the criticism has been leveled at the Redskins usage of their three second round picks and the commensurate lack of youth and depth along both their offensive and defensive lines.

I would like to throw out the possibility that at the beginning of the 2008 season, the Redskins made a conscientious decision that '08 would be a transitional year and their personnel approach is a reflection on this. I believe this decision was made for several reasons.

1. First, they understood that many key personnel were aging. Remember, when Gibbs first arrived they had a three-year plan in place. Consequently you saw them go out and get guys who were already in their prime. Zorn's first year would really mark the end of that window and I believe that the Redskins front office understood the limitations of their current personnel due to age.
2. Secondly, I believe they understood that Zorn would be installing a new offense that would take at least one year for this group and this quarterback to master. The one area where they lacked depth was at receiver and consequently they saw an opportunity to bolster depth in this area. Furthermore, they knew that their offense was not going to perform for a year anyway so the draft was a good way to address this area because most personnel guys will tell you that it takes several years for receivers to mature. Don't let Cerrato fool you either - teams most certainly do draft for need and I think you saw that in their '08 draft.

Based on these considerations I believe they drafted in preparation for '09 or '10, after which point in time their receivers would have matured and their offense would be in rhythm. The early success however was a surprise and it was probably both a blessing and curse because it inflated our expectations for a team that was most certainly in transition.

So what we have now is a team that is still going through a transitional phase. This coming off-season I would expect to see turnover in at least two or three key positions where veterans are replaced with either current personnel or acquisitions. I think that Springs is probably gone (unless he is willing to renegotiate) as well as Daniels and maybe even Marcus Washington.

In free agency, I would also expect them to pick-up at least defensive lineman., a linebacker, and possibly an offensive lineman as well although I do believe that they think they are strong at LT, C and RG going into '09. Along the defensive line it's hard to imagine them going for a guy like Peppers or Haynesworth (if these guys are even available) however a guy like Canty would help bolster their line and allow them to get more creative with Carter and Taylor (if Taylor returns). At linebacker a guy like Suggs could fill a huge void at outside linebacker and could also help provide a guy capable of rushing the passer.

In the draft I would expect them to look for an opportunity to acquire players along their o-line as well as defensive front seven.

All that being said, I believe they made the following mistakes in '08:

1. First, they panicked when Daniels and Buzbee went down early in camp and acquired an aging veteran in Jason Taylor in exchange for a second round pick. This was certainly a panic move that brought back bad memories of the Duckett trade and doesn't make sense in the context of a three-year plan.
2. Second, I believe they became greedy when Fred Davis (who I would guess they projected as a first rounder) became available with their second round pick. This pick just makes no sense with the personnel they currently have in place and could have been better applied to address the lack of youth and talent along the O-line and defensive front seven.

Overall however, I think they are going to be well positioned going into 2009 with younger, more athletic players along their defensive front seven and offensive line and an offense that has one year in the system (as well as two receivers who are ready to become contributors in '09).

I agree with 98% of the rest of your thread, but the FA acquitions seem a bit much. I suspect we will be players, but that quantity seems a bit high.

I think the B&G will be more fiscally responsible than what you have posted.

[redskinjim]

dont know why they picked any recievers at all unless they WERE looking to the future. wide outs never produce there first year unless you are randy moss.

[GMScud]

Originally Posted by redskinjim

dont know why they picked any recievers at all unless they WERE looking to the future. wide outs never produce there first year unless you are randy moss.

Or DeSean Jackson or Eddie Royal or Donnie Avery.....

[SFREDSKIN]

Originally Posted by GMScud

Or DeSean Jackson or Eddie Royal or Donnie Avery.....

The reason none of these receivers were picked was due their size. Most fans and Skins personnel thought Moss, ARE and Lloyd were too small and wanted more physical receivers. Everyone was bitching about the size of our receivers so that's what we got. The moral of the story is that you can't go by the physical size of someone, it should be measured by the person heart/desire. Does Wes Welker ring a bell? How about Steve Smith, our own Santana Moss?

[GMScud]

Originally Posted by SFREDSKIN

The reason none of these receivers were picked was due their size. Most fans and Skins personnel thought Moss, ARE and Lloyd were too small and wanted more physical receivers. Everyone was bitching about the size of our receivers so that's what we got. The moral of the story is that you can't go by the physical size of someone, it should be measured by the person heart/desire. Does Wes Welker ring a bell? How about Steve Smith, our own Santana Moss?

I wish we had the complimentary pieces that would allow us to use Moss out of the slot more often. That's what makes Welker so dangerous.

And Steve Smith is possibly the best weapon in the league right now. The guy is flat out amazing.

[Defensewins]

Originally Posted by SFREDSKIN

The reason none of these receivers were picked was due their size. Most fans and Skins personnel thought Moss, ARE and Lloyd were too small and wanted more physical receivers. Everyone was bitching about the size of our receivers so that's what we got. The moral of the story is that you can't go by the physical size of someone, it should be measured by the person heart/desire. Does Wes Welker ring a bell? How about Steve Smith, our own Santana Moss?

Agreed. Talent evaluation is the problem.
Our FO drafted two WR's that did care enough to show up in shape to their first camp. That is why they slipped in the draft and were slow to develop. Not a good sign. I question are they the the type of dedicated athlete we want? Will they work hard in the future to improve?

With all of the injuries on the OL, I am really surprised and disappointed rookie Guard Chad Rinehart has not played more. He was a 3rd round draft pick, a relatively high pick. He could not outplay Jason Fabini? What does that say about what Rinehart is showing the coaches in practice? Stephon Heyer was started as a rookie last year over Fabini. Why is Rinehart not on the field and why hasn't he beaten out Fabini?
Justin Tyron, Durant Brooks....not good.
Chris Horton is the only draft pick that has looked good on an NFL field.
I know it is early, but so far not a good draft class.

[GMScud]

Originally Posted by Defensewins

Agreed. Talent evaluation is the problem.
Our FO drafted two WR's that did care enough to show up in shape to their first camp. That is why they slipped in the draft and were slow to develop. Not a good sign. I question are they the the type of dedicated athlete we want? Will they work hard in the future to improve?

With all of the injuries on the OL, I am really surprised and disappointed rookie Guard Chad Rinehart has not played more. He was a 3rd round draft pick, a relatively high pick. He could not outplay Jason Fabini? What does that say about what Rinehart is showing the coaches in practice? Stephon Heyer was started as a rookie last year over Fabini. Why is Rinehart not on the field and why hasn't he beaten out Fabini?
Justin Tyron, Durant Brooks....not good.
Chris Horton is the only draft pick that has looked good on an NFL field.
I know it is early, but so far not a good draft class.

Tryon and Brooks were certainly pretty bad picks.

Thomas has struggled to learn the offense, but Malcolm Kelly has had to deal with his knee injury. I do however put that one on the front office. We knew his knee was a red flag before we ever drafted him.

Chad Reinhart has been a disappointment. He hasn't even suited up for a game yet, and it's not like there's a huge learning curve on the O-line when transitioning from rookie to pro. Rookie O-lineman contribute all the time in the NFL - undrafted Stephon Heyer last year is a case in point. You can't label Reinhart a bust after one year, but the fact that we've had a line riddled with injuries and he still hasn't played a single snap... not good at all.