Lewis or Gibbs?

Tahoe Skin · 11-04-2004, 10:40 PM

I've been looking at next week's game (yeah, I know) and wondering: Who will win the award for Most Stubborn Coach of the Year? Marv Lewis or Joe Gibbs?

Both have the same records (2-5). Both have pathetic offenses (Wash. is rated 26th in NFL, while Cin. is rated 25th). Both can't seem to make first downs or 3rd down conversions, as both teams are at the bottom end of each category.

Here's the kicker: Both have QBs playing miserably (Carson Palmer with a passer rating of 62.6 (dead last) vs. Mark Brunell with a 69.1 (6th lowest). Both have QBs on the bench that played last year much better than the current starters. And, yet, both are unwilling to bench the starter.

So who is more stubborn?

Redskins8588 · 11-04-2004, 10:59 PM

I really dont think that Lewis is being stubborn with his choice of not benching Palmer. Yes they are one of the worst offenses in the league and there record is 2-5, but also remember that Palmer is still in all reality a 2nd year rookie.

I am sure that last year no one in the Bengals orginization thought that Kitna would have had that kind of year. So they drafted Palmer #1 over all in the draft for a reason, he is to be the future of the Bengals. Also Palmer really hasnt played that horrible this year to compare him to other #1 QB draft picks that flopped. I think that Lewis is doing the right thing by letting Palmer play, if he is to be the future of the team then you cant bench him.

illdefined · 11-04-2004, 10:59 PM

ha! we'll see this game!

Gmanc711 · 11-04-2004, 11:19 PM

I'll lean towards Lewis in the sense that Kinta ran his offense and ran it REALLY well already. Ramsey is still learning the offense, although I am one that wants him in. I'll give it to Marvin though.

ZackMills · 11-04-2004, 11:27 PM

Old Man is playing a QB who is past his prime when he has the future playing with himself on the bench. Lewis is forcefeeding Palmer to the NFL and getting the bumps of the NFL out of the way. Old Man is more stubborn...too bad we didn't keep Lewis and make him our HC

:vomit-smi

redrock-skins · 11-04-2004, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by illdefined

ha! we'll see this game!

Yes, we get to settle this debate on the field, unless one of the coaches blinks by then.

sportscurmudgeon · 11-05-2004, 12:08 AM

I have a suspicion that the decision to move on to the "Carson Palmer Era" was at least partially made with a nudge from the owner's box who is writing the checks out to Carson Palmer.

Mike Brown was notorious for not firing coaches in the middle of their contracts in order to avoid paying someone good money not to work for him. I have a sense that at least some of that mentality kicked in after he looked at the books at the4 end of last season.

Absent a major change of fortune this season, my prediction is that we will see Patrick Ramsey start the game against the NY Giants here in DC on the weekend of 5 December. Given the certainty of many of the posters here that Ramsey's absence from the line-up is the ONLY reason that the Skins are not 6-1 (at a minimum) to this point, that will give the Skins a 5-game winning streak to end the season and might just squeeze them into the playoffs where a Super Bowl victory would be assured with Ramsey under center.

Gmanc711 · 11-05-2004, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZackMills

Lewis is forcefeeding Palmer to the NFL and getting the bumps of the NFL out of the way. Old Man is more stubborn...too bad we didn't keep Lewis and make him our HC

:vomit-smi

Yeah, the Bengals are having a GREAT year.

In addition, for everytime you refer to Joe Gibbs as old man, i'm going to refer to you as " Young Dumbass ".

So let me rephrase this ....

Yeah, the Bengals are having a GREAT year, young dumbass.

htownskinfan · 11-05-2004, 01:39 AM

I'm going to have to vote for Gibbs,I agree with sportscurmudgen,I think that was a front office move in the bengals case,in Gibbs case I am at a loss as to why he's sticking with the worst qb in the league,if Spurrier would have signed Wuerffel to Brunell's contract and stuck with him after playing that bad all hell would have broken loose,the only thing saving Gibbs is his past

Winskins · 11-05-2004, 01:58 AM

I have to say that as coaches these guys have to look at what these guys have been doing and what they think they are on track to do. When you see that a guy is doing poorly, but the fault rests on more than just him, then maybe it's best to let him hang in there. A change in quarterback might be able to provide a slight spark, but not necessarily ignite a fire.

For example, when you look at Brunnel, you probably think to yourself that this guy has terrible stats, he makes terribly unaccurate throws, and that it's time to try fresh new blood so that we can get out of this slump. But first, you have to look at what factors are contributing to this.

In some cases Mark Brunnel has overthrown wide open receivers, but what do we know about if the receivers are running their routes properly (perhaps running a 13 yard cross, instead of a 15 yard cross). In a game, when you have to make fast reads, these things can make a real difference. Especially when Brunnel hasn't been getting that much time as has been the case in recent games. Sometimes he basically has to find the guy and throw off his back foot. If the receivers had run consistently, then he may have made that throw (the yards that the pass looked off may have been where the receiver was supposed to be).

Brunnel may not be making all the plays and it cannot be debated that Mark hasn't been doing a lot of things right, but I think to make him shoulder the blame is kinda wrong. Most people go and they look at Ramsey going out there last year and slinging it, but you have to remember that there were some cases last year when you could see that standing by and watching could have done him a world of good. Ramsey supports and believes in Mark Brunnel...maybe some of us should too.

Skins1573 · 11-05-2004, 03:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gmanc711

Yeah, the Bengals are having a GREAT year.

In addition, for everytime you refer to Joe Gibbs as old man, i'm going to refer to you as " Young Dumbass ".

So let me rephrase this ....

Yeah, the Bengals are having a GREAT year, young dumbass.

Gmanc711,
I couldn't agree with U more about dumbass, by the way he shows no respect, I'm sure he is the type who got his ass kicked alot . :cheeky-sm

That Guy · 11-05-2004, 04:04 AM

SC, :P thinking ramsey could win games against the eagles is a little premature... but brunell has been way way way off target with at least 50% of his throws, so i've been saying its time to see if ramsey can do any better... either we find out that we have a QB or not, and settle whether it really was brunell's fault as well.

at least our D is for real...

offiss · 11-05-2004, 05:02 AM

Defiently Gibb's, Lewis is building toward's the future and they have a lot invested in this kid Palmer, Didn't Kitna have his chance last year and didn't do a whole lot, you can't draft a QB #1 and sit him on the bench for 2 year's the fastest way to learning in the NFL is to play.

Contrarily Gibb's is sacrificing the future to stick with a QB who is done, Brunell has been hit 1 to many times and can't take it anymore, we are also seeing a QB with no ability to read defenses and make throws from the pocket, why? He made his bones running out of the pocket when protection broke down, and controlled roll out's where he could adlib, he can no longer run so guess what he has no game in the pocket. But we did give him 43mil. does anyone believe if we signed Brunell as a free agent to a reasonable contract that he would still be playing? No way, take a look at McCant's he can't get activated for a game because he can't perform well in practice, and yet he performed well for us last year as well as this past pre-season, we have guy's getting released because they are not performing up to expectation's, and no one and I mean no one has underperformed or down right stunk like Brunell, and yet Gibb's continues to go with him, it's not like he doesn't have a real legitamate option, he does in Ramsey, STUBBORNNESS GOES TO GIBB'S!

That Guy · 11-05-2004, 08:24 AM

kitna had his chance and basically played a pro bowl type year offiss... everyone was pretty surprised when lewis made that call.

ZackMills · 11-05-2004, 08:28 AM

Quote:

In addition, for everytime you refer to Joe Gibbs as old man, i'm going to refer to you as " Young Dumbass ".

Aren't you the clever one.

...Don't show your ignorance.

11-04-2004, 10:59 PM	#2
Redskins8588 Playmaker Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Ridgway, PA Age: 46 Posts: 2,519	I really dont think that Lewis is being stubborn with his choice of not benching Palmer. Yes they are one of the worst offenses in the league and there record is 2-5, but also remember that Palmer is still in all reality a 2nd year rookie. I am sure that last year no one in the Bengals orginization thought that Kitna would have had that kind of year. So they drafted Palmer #1 over all in the draft for a reason, he is to be the future of the Bengals. Also Palmer really hasnt played that horrible this year to compare him to other #1 QB draft picks that flopped. I think that Lewis is doing the right thing by letting Palmer play, if he is to be the future of the team then you cant bench him. __________________ "I am the best at what I do, and what I do isn't very nice" - Sean Taylor

11-05-2004, 12:08 AM	#7
sportscurmudgeon Playmaker Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 3,159	I have a suspicion that the decision to move on to the "Carson Palmer Era" was at least partially made with a nudge from the owner's box who is writing the checks out to Carson Palmer. Mike Brown was notorious for not firing coaches in the middle of their contracts in order to avoid paying someone good money not to work for him. I have a sense that at least some of that mentality kicked in after he looked at the books at the4 end of last season. Absent a major change of fortune this season, my prediction is that we will see Patrick Ramsey start the game against the NY Giants here in DC on the weekend of 5 December. Given the certainty of many of the posters here that Ramsey's absence from the line-up is the ONLY reason that the Skins are not 6-1 (at a minimum) to this point, that will give the Skins a 5-game winning streak to end the season and might just squeeze them into the playoffs where a Super Bowl victory would be assured with Ramsey under center. __________________ The Sports Curmudgeon www.sportscurmudgeon.com But don't get me wrong, I love sports...

11-05-2004, 01:58 AM	#10
Winskins Special Teams Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Wheaton, MD Age: 40 Posts: 282	I have to say that as coaches these guys have to look at what these guys have been doing and what they think they are on track to do. When you see that a guy is doing poorly, but the fault rests on more than just him, then maybe it's best to let him hang in there. A change in quarterback might be able to provide a slight spark, but not necessarily ignite a fire. For example, when you look at Brunnel, you probably think to yourself that this guy has terrible stats, he makes terribly unaccurate throws, and that it's time to try fresh new blood so that we can get out of this slump. But first, you have to look at what factors are contributing to this. In some cases Mark Brunnel has overthrown wide open receivers, but what do we know about if the receivers are running their routes properly (perhaps running a 13 yard cross, instead of a 15 yard cross). In a game, when you have to make fast reads, these things can make a real difference. Especially when Brunnel hasn't been getting that much time as has been the case in recent games. Sometimes he basically has to find the guy and throw off his back foot. If the receivers had run consistently, then he may have made that throw (the yards that the pass looked off may have been where the receiver was supposed to be). Brunnel may not be making all the plays and it cannot be debated that Mark hasn't been doing a lot of things right, but I think to make him shoulder the blame is kinda wrong. Most people go and they look at Ramsey going out there last year and slinging it, but you have to remember that there were some cases last year when you could see that standing by and watching could have done him a world of good. Ramsey supports and believes in Mark Brunnel...maybe some of us should too. __________________ The Skins will make the Cowboys their woman...and they're gonna enjoy it!

11-04-2004, 10:40 PM	#1
Tahoe Skin Special Teams Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 100	Lewis or Gibbs? I've been looking at next week's game (yeah, I know) and wondering: Who will win the award for Most Stubborn Coach of the Year? Marv Lewis or Joe Gibbs? Both have the same records (2-5). Both have pathetic offenses (Wash. is rated 26th in NFL, while Cin. is rated 25th). Both can't seem to make first downs or 3rd down conversions, as both teams are at the bottom end of each category. Here's the kicker: Both have QBs playing miserably (Carson Palmer with a passer rating of 62.6 (dead last) vs. Mark Brunell with a 69.1 (6th lowest). Both have QBs on the bench that played last year much better than the current starters. And, yet, both are unwilling to bench the starter. So who is more stubborn?

11-04-2004, 10:59 PM	#3
illdefined Playmaker Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: nyc Age: 48 Posts: 2,631	ha! we'll see this game!

11-04-2004, 11:19 PM	#4
Gmanc711 Thank You, Sean. Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Gaithersburg, MD Age: 39 Posts: 7,506	I'll lean towards Lewis in the sense that Kinta ran his offense and ran it REALLY well already. Ramsey is still learning the offense, although I am one that wants him in. I'll give it to Marvin though.

11-04-2004, 11:27 PM	#5
ZackMills Registered User Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 176	Old Man is playing a QB who is past his prime when he has the future playing with himself on the bench. Lewis is forcefeeding Palmer to the NFL and getting the bumps of the NFL out of the way. Old Man is more stubborn...too bad we didn't keep Lewis and make him our HC :vomit-smi

11-05-2004, 01:39 AM	#9
htownskinfan JUST LIVIN Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: houston,tx Age: 62 Posts: 4,909	I'm going to have to vote for Gibbs,I agree with sportscurmudgen,I think that was a front office move in the bengals case,in Gibbs case I am at a loss as to why he's sticking with the worst qb in the league,if Spurrier would have signed Wuerffel to Brunell's contract and stuck with him after playing that bad all hell would have broken loose,the only thing saving Gibbs is his past

11-05-2004, 04:04 AM	#12
That Guy Living Legend Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: VA Age: 42 Posts: 17,553	SC, :P thinking ramsey could win games against the eagles is a little premature... but brunell has been way way way off target with at least 50% of his throws, so i've been saying its time to see if ramsey can do any better... either we find out that we have a QB or not, and settle whether it really was brunell's fault as well. at least our D is for real...

11-05-2004, 05:02 AM	#13
offiss Registered User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: sparta, new jersey [ northern jersey ] Age: 60 Posts: 3,097	Defiently Gibb's, Lewis is building toward's the future and they have a lot invested in this kid Palmer, Didn't Kitna have his chance last year and didn't do a whole lot, you can't draft a QB #1 and sit him on the bench for 2 year's the fastest way to learning in the NFL is to play. Contrarily Gibb's is sacrificing the future to stick with a QB who is done, Brunell has been hit 1 to many times and can't take it anymore, we are also seeing a QB with no ability to read defenses and make throws from the pocket, why? He made his bones running out of the pocket when protection broke down, and controlled roll out's where he could adlib, he can no longer run so guess what he has no game in the pocket. But we did give him 43mil. does anyone believe if we signed Brunell as a free agent to a reasonable contract that he would still be playing? No way, take a look at McCant's he can't get activated for a game because he can't perform well in practice, and yet he performed well for us last year as well as this past pre-season, we have guy's getting released because they are not performing up to expectation's, and no one and I mean no one has underperformed or down right stunk like Brunell, and yet Gibb's continues to go with him, it's not like he doesn't have a real legitamate option, he does in Ramsey, STUBBORNNESS GOES TO GIBB'S!

11-05-2004, 08:24 AM	#14
That Guy Living Legend Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: VA Age: 42 Posts: 17,553	kitna had his chance and basically played a pro bowl type year offiss... everyone was pretty surprised when lewis made that call.

Lewis or Gibbs?

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