The gun debate

[mooby]

I didn't really know where to stick this, but I found this map of gun deaths per 100k residents (based off CDC data) interesting.

https://projects.oregonlive.com/ucc-shooting/gun-deaths

They offer 3 perspectives, gun deaths per 100k, suicides per 100k, and homicides per 100k.

I don't care to start a debate now (maybe we can wait until the next mass shooting) but I didn't want to hijack another thread for this.

[Chico23231]

So your first 2 charts don’t matter... accidental, suicides, etc. this isn’t the drivers of the gun issue.

[mooby]

I don't have time to get into it now but I think the first chart is total gun deaths per 100k (meaning suicides and homicides). The next two are more intimate breakdowns.

[Chico23231]

Yeah while suicides are terrible, it’s misleading in the gun debate.

[mooby]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

Yeah while suicides are terrible, it’s misleading in the gun debate.

I get what you're saying, but if the angle is that restricting guns isn't the answer to the gun problem America has, then your answer is that mental health needs to be taken more seriously. Mental health is a big factor in mass shootings and suicides.

[Buffalo Bob]

A topic that seems to have no middle ground. It seems like most are dug in and won't budge. 40 years ago when mass shootings were rare, that is when I turned 18 and bought my first gun, a 357 magnum. Went in to a Big 5 sporting goods, picked one out of the case, handed over the cash, showed my driver's license, signed by my name and address in a book and gave a thumb print. Out the door with a handgun and a couple 100 rounds of ammunition in less than 10 minutes. That was in California to boot.

Guns are much harder to come by now yet mass shootings are common place, and suicides by young people are way up from decades ago. Probably a little bit of everything is causing it, but it isn't the gun, they have been around for centuries. I would look toward mental health as a big issue, back in the day when suicides were lower and mass shootings were rare you didn't have every other kid diagnosed with ADHD and medicated. I have known people who had 3 kids that were all on pills. I noticed people blame bullying a lot, bullies have been around longer than guns.

The difference in gun and hunting laws between California and Virginia is night and day, California became more and more restrictive as the decades passed. In California you can't even legally kill a rattlesnake that is on your property. In Caroline County Va you can pretty much kill anything on your property that isn't human if it can be considered a pest. My neighbor called the county and said there was a beaver that was damning up a nearby creek which flooded his garden. the guy who answered the phone asked my neighbor if he owned a rifle. Considering the night and day difference between California and Virginia gun laws, the rate of crimes committed by guns are very similar. In California even a private party gun sale has to be brokered through a licensed dealer and held for a waiting period. In Virginia I can meet someone in a parking lot and if they have a state I.D. sell them a gun on the spot.

I think the only gun laws that could lower homicides is a nation wide red flag law, but most people on the right are dead set against that. Wide spread stop and frisk would catch a lot of ex-felons with guns that should not have them, most people are against that. Some people just think government agencies will abuse any extra power they get. Pretty sure cops will be stop and frisking known gang bangers and people suspected of selling drugs, not frisking people leaving church on Sunday.

[CRedskinsRule]

He has a beary impawtant question

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

[SunnySide]

SANTA FE, Texas -- A teenager accused of fatally shooting 10 people at a Texas high school in 2018 was able to buy more than 100 rounds of ammunition online because his age was not verified, according to a lawsuit alleging that the website involved broke federal law.

Dimitrios Pagourtzis was a 17-year-old junior at the time of the May 2018 shooting at Santa Fe High School. Federal law prohibits minors from purchasing handgun ammunition, and bars licensed gun companies from selling handgun or shotgun ammunition to minors or anyone they have reason to believe is under the age of 21.

According to an amended lawsuit filed Thursday, Pagourtzis initially ordered 50 rounds of hollow-point handgun ammunition and 105 rounds of 12-gauge shotgun ammunition, the Houston Chronicle reported. Two weeks later, he purchased an additional 35 rounds of shotgun ammunition — both times from the website Luckygunner.com that did not require him to make an account, submit proof of age or set-up a secure two-step authorization, the filing said.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/...ooter-69444187

I believe most proposed gun laws would only be a burden to legal law abiding gun owners and mass shooters. It will do nothing for the day to day street crime.

I believe most of us believe that there should be some reasonable restrictions put in place.

Like not selling live ammo online to anyone with out strict age and verification ffs.

Im pro gun for the most part, dont own one, might in the future.

[Buffalo Bob]

Why no mention of where he got the gun? How do they verify age on internet purchases? I would be curious, do you send them a scan of your driver's license? I think that would be easy to defeat, you could just "borrow" someone else's living in the home and pretend to be them.

[SunnySide]

Originally Posted by Buffalo Bob

Why no mention of where he got the gun? How do they verify age on internet purchases? I would be curious, do you send them a scan of your driver's license? I think that would be easy to defeat, you could just "borrow" someone else's living in the home and pretend to be them.

Require and actually enforce that an adult with an ID matching the purchase name to sign for the package would be the easiest. Only a handful of States require ID checks for online ammo purchases. There is no Federal requirement.

It wouldnt even be a 2A law, its be an interstate commerce shipping gunpowder law.

The Colorado movie theater shooter also bought this ammo online, im sure a lot more mass shooters have as well.

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Where did he get the gun?

I wanted to focus on unlimited online ammo purchasing bc I think we can or should all agree that shouldnt be possible. When you get into "where did he get the gun" .... youre entering a territory where no sides will ever agree and its been debated ad nauseum.

Im trying to find one thing, even staunch 2As would support.

Mind blowing that a 13 year old with a prepaid visa gift card could buy 100 rounds of ammo right now.

[Buffalo Bob]

Originally Posted by SunnySide

Require and actually enforce that an adult with an ID matching the purchase name to sign for the package would be the easiest. Only a handful of States require ID checks for online ammo purchases. There is no Federal requirement.

It wouldnt even be a 2A law, its be an interstate commerce shipping gunpowder law.

The Colorado movie theater shooter also bought this ammo online, im sure a lot more mass shooters have as well.

------

Where did he get the gun?

I wanted to focus on unlimited online ammo purchasing bc I think we can or should all agree that shouldnt be possible. When you get into "where did he get the gun" .... youre entering a territory where no sides will ever agree and its been debated ad nauseum.

Im trying to find one thing, even staunch 2As would support.

Mind blowing that a 13 year old with a prepaid visa gift card could buy 100 rounds of ammo right now.

I should have specified 21 or over as that what it said federal law was for internet purchase of ammo and fire arms. I mostly ship USPS and once in a while Fedex or UPS. You can only specify "Adult Signature Required" that would be anyone 18+ that answers the door at the delivery address. Nowhere is it found a specific person has to sign for the package or someone 21+. I do agree that a 13 year old should not be able to order ammo with a debit card. I am pretty sure a lot of those places take Paypal that you can sign up for using an anonymous e-mail address.

Also if you are in a secure area most often a driver will leave packages that require signatures if no one is home.

[Giantone]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

Yeah while suicides are terrible, it’s misleading in the gun debate.

NO it isn't . If mental health is an issue(and it is) doesn't matter if the gunman is taking their own lifes or anyone else's.............it's a problem.

[Buffalo Bob]

So now we are blaming guns for suicides? A person hell bent on killing themselves isn't going to decide not to do it if their method of choice isn't immediately handy, they are either going to wait to acquire the items to execute their method of choice or switch to plan B.

While firearms are used in half of suicides, suffocation and poisoning account for the next 40%. There is no correlation between the availability of guns to the suicide rate, that one is easy to look up.

[CRedskinsRule]

The right to bear arms wasn't written into the constitution to enable suicides. People with what we today call mental health issues would have been institutionalized, or died very early, or kept with family and church. Our gun debate, like everything else in this country is so far astray from the point of originality that I am not sure it - or other things - can ever be resolved without a constitutional convention or amendments.

[Giantone]

Originally Posted by Buffalo Bob

So now we are blaming guns for suicides? A person hell bent on killing themselves isn't going to decide not to do it if their method of choice isn't immediately handy, they are either going to wait to acquire the items to execute their method of choice or switch to plan B.

While firearms are used in half of suicides, suffocation and poisoning account for the next 40%. There is no correlation between the availability of guns to the suicide rate, that one is easy to look up.

Please learn to read and stop your sky is falling attitude. There are mental health issues that must be addressed and yes suicides (some of them) are a direct result of having access to guns while in a bad mental state as are many mass shootings . Correct?