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F... gas prices

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Old 05-17-2008, 11:28 AM   #1
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Re: F... gas prices

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the given in this whole thing is, we need gas. this pretty much constitutes a monopoly
No. By definition, the universal need for a product does not create a monoply. It is the control of the production by a single source that creates the monopoly. If multiple oil companies are in competition with one another, and lacking collusion, then oil will find its market value.

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until there are other choices, this should be semi controlled/ watched by the government.
They are regulated out the wazoo which is one of the reasons gas prices are high.

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this is a big difference between the Dem's and the G.O.P the republicans think that big business is above playing fair. while the Dem's think there is a point where you have enough of a profit margin
That's a pretty sweeping indictment and one that goes to the fundamental aspects of both the free market system and of our form of government. I also think it is pretty naive. "Playing fair", in my mind, means don't collude - compete. It does not mean - "Gosh jeepers don't make too much money."

You don't like how much the oil companies make? Buy a prius - get a job closer to your home, work with one car, ride mass transit. When those options are not practically available, work towards having the government create incentives to create alternative energy choices, increase mass transit, etc. Telling oil companies to stop profiting avoids your responsibility in the market system and in the democratic republican (i.e. government by popularly elected officials) form of government we have.

When you start injecting socialist controls into the free market based solely on the concept that some group is profiting too much from the system, you inject artificial elements into that system which are fundamentally opposed to and work against the system's basic structure, i.e. incentive to maximize your own gain - whether you be buyer or seller. In doing so, you destroy not just the incentive for oil companies to compete with one another, you also destroy the incentive for alternative energy forms to compete with oil.

Oversight is fine, but destruction of incentive by artificially capping profits is not the answer. In our government/economic system, you, I and others have the power, if we mobilize, to almost completely destroy the oil industry profits in the US economy by both decreasing demand and by finding alternatives to the internal combustion engine. But it OUR responsibility to do so.
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Old 05-17-2008, 04:18 PM   #2
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Re: F... gas prices

Looks like I won't be driving to work much longer. My employer just jacked our monthly parking fee to $175. When you add gas into the mix that's almost $275 a month just to drive to and from work. Compare that to a subsidized $50 flex bus pass for an entire year taking the bus is no brainer.
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Old 05-17-2008, 09:36 PM   #3
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Re: F... gas prices

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Looks like I won't be driving to work much longer. My employer just jacked our monthly parking fee to $175. When you add gas into the mix that's almost $275 a month just to drive to and from work. Compare that to a subsidized $50 flex bus pass for an entire year taking the bus is no brainer.
Less oil needed. JoeRedskins argument in action. If we all took the bus more we'd be better off in so many ways in our country.
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Old 05-18-2008, 02:51 AM   #4
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Re: F... gas prices

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No. By definition, the universal need for a product does not create a monoply. It is the control of the production by a single source that creates the monopoly. If multiple oil companies are in competition with one another, and lacking collusion, then oil will find its market value.



They are regulated out the wazoo which is one of the reasons gas prices are high.



That's a pretty sweeping indictment and one that goes to the fundamental aspects of both the free market system and of our form of government. I also think it is pretty naive. "Playing fair", in my mind, means don't collude - compete. It does not mean - "Gosh jeepers don't make too much money."

You don't like how much the oil companies make? Buy a prius - get a job closer to your home, work with one car, ride mass transit. When those options are not practically available, work towards having the government create incentives to create alternative energy choices, increase mass transit, etc. Telling oil companies to stop profiting avoids your responsibility in the market system and in the democratic republican (i.e. government by popularly elected officials) form of government we have.

When you start injecting socialist controls into the free market based solely on the concept that some group is profiting too much from the system, you inject artificial elements into that system which are fundamentally opposed to and work against the system's basic structure, i.e. incentive to maximize your own gain - whether you be buyer or seller. In doing so, you destroy not just the incentive for oil companies to compete with one another, you also destroy the incentive for alternative energy forms to compete with oil.

Oversight is fine, but destruction of incentive by artificially capping profits is not the answer. In our government/economic system, you, I and others have the power, if we mobilize, to almost completely destroy the oil industry profits in the US economy by both decreasing demand and by finding alternatives to the internal combustion engine. But it OUR responsibility to do so.
The energy market is free market? That's news to me. These guys have very deep pockets and will crush anyone that attempts to subvert their flow of income. If the government won't step in no one can because they have too many people in their pockets and any new startup/ventures will get crushed ala Microsoft style (bought and shelved, blacklisted, undercut, or pounded into nebulous existence). Anyone that really thinks the "free market" can solve our problems is either naive or utterly stupid.

As for mass transit being an alternative, it could but only if the government actually invested in a decent transit infrastructure. As it stands, it takes way too long to catch a bus and we don't have any trains to speak off. If we actually invested money like the Europeans have we'll be in a good shape. Alas, their is no interest from our political leaders to do anything meaningful, and why should they, their money comes from lobbyists whose sole job is to fuck you over.
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Old 05-18-2008, 11:55 AM   #5
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Re: F... gas prices

Vive le Revolution!
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Old 05-19-2008, 12:08 PM   #6
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Re: F... gas prices

I really hope this limits the amount of huge SUVs and trucks on the road. I've noticed that a) most people can't drive those vehicles. and b) I hate trying to see when someone has a car the size of a small yacht when they simply don't need that space.

On the other hand, I get 20 minutes of enjoyment every day watching the woman with the Suburban try to park it every evening. One day she'll even get it straight.
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Old 05-19-2008, 12:29 PM   #7
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Re: F... gas prices

I'm pretty "pro-environment," but I have to wonder what harm would it do to drill in Alaska. Supposing we drilled in some remote forest and there was a spill, would it be that hard to clean up? I would think that a oil spill on land would be pretty contained.
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Old 05-19-2008, 01:06 PM   #8
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Re: F... gas prices

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I'm pretty "pro-environment," but I have to wonder what harm would it do to drill in Alaska. Supposing we drilled in some remote forest and there was a spill, would it be that hard to clean up? I would think that a oil spill on land would be pretty contained.
After you sucked Alaska dry what's the game plan? If people referred to drilling ANWR as a short term solution I'd have less of a problem but people act like it's a viable solution which solves the fundamental problem. What happens 10-15 years from now? Drilling ANWR is a hack just like the gas tax relief being flaunted.
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Old 05-19-2008, 01:16 PM   #9
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Re: F... gas prices

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After you sucked Alaska dry what's the game plan? If people referred to drilling ANWR as a short term solution I'd have less of a problem but people act like it's a viable solution which solves the fundamental problem. What happens 10-15 years from now? Drilling ANWR is a hack just like the gas tax relief being flaunted.
Who ever said this was a long term solution? This is something that will help us NOW, which is what we need. The future plan is some kind of alternative energy, but right now, none of them are economically feasible. Right now we need more oil and the only way to do that is to drill for more.
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Old 05-19-2008, 01:26 PM   #10
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Re: F... gas prices

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After you sucked Alaska dry what's the game plan? If people referred to drilling ANWR as a short term solution I'd have less of a problem but people act like it's a viable solution which solves the fundamental problem. What happens 10-15 years from now? Drilling ANWR is a hack just like the gas tax relief being flaunted.
I think it is pretty evident that our oil addiction is a big problem. I also believe that drilling in Alaska isn't a cure-all. However, I think it's an option we should pursue, given that will buy us time to find more permanent solutions.
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Old 05-19-2008, 02:54 PM   #11
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Re: F... gas prices

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I think it is pretty evident that our oil addiction is a big problem. I also believe that drilling in Alaska isn't a cure-all. However, I think it's an option we should pursue, given that will buy us time to find more permanent solutions.
Suppose ANWR is depleted, where is your emergency/strategic reserve going to come from?
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Old 05-19-2008, 04:27 PM   #12
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Re: F... gas prices

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Suppose ANWR is depleted, where is your emergency/strategic reserve going to come from?
Good point. I guess we should forget drilling in ANWR because it will run it too.
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Old 05-19-2008, 04:38 PM   #13
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Re: F... gas prices

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Suppose ANWR is depleted, where is your emergency/strategic reserve going to come from?
Drilling offshore in the Atlantic and the Pacific, the Bakken oil field in Montana and North Dakota, the 1.5 trillion barrels of oil shale under Colorado, Utah, and Wyoming. The technology to extract the oil from the shale has improved greatly, so we can get that oil if we really need it.

What do you suggest we do about our huge oil problem? I know that you probably want to find alternative energy sources, but we need a lot more time to develop them. This will buy us that time.
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Old 05-19-2008, 05:14 PM   #14
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Re: F... gas prices

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Suppose ANWR is depleted, where is your emergency/strategic reserve going to come from?
Did you mean to imply that ANWR is our current emergency/strategic reserve? If so, ANWR is pretty crappy strategic reserve. I'm no oilman, but I think it's safe to say that it would take months or even years to set up rigs and pipelines for us to start getting oil from ANWR. So, if you're concerned about having an emergency/strategic reserve, don't you think we should get moving on drilling in ANWR asap? Currently, ANWR isn't a resource we can rely on to effectively deal with crises.
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Old 05-19-2008, 01:11 PM   #15
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Re: F... gas prices

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I'm pretty "pro-environment," but I have to wonder what harm would it do to drill in Alaska. Supposing we drilled in some remote forest and there was a spill, would it be that hard to clean up? I would think that a oil spill on land would be pretty contained.
I'm pretty sure that there are no forests where they want to drill. I think it is too far north for there to be any trees. I do know that drilling for oil has become a lot more environmentally friendly and that spills are very rare. Also, where they drill for oil will only take up 2000 acres out of ANWR's total area of 1.5 million acres, so it won't really have that big of an affect on the area.
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Only 8% of ANWR Would Be Considered for Exploration Only the 1.5 million acre or 8% on the northern coast of ANWR is being considered for development. The remaining 17.5 million acres or 92% of ANWR will remain permanently closed to any kind of development. If oil is discovered, less than 2000 acres of the over 1.5 million acres of the Coastal Plain would be affected. That¹s less than half of one percent of ANWR that would be affected by production activity.
Alaska Oil Anwar
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