How long do you keep Devin Thomas and Malcolm Kelly if they don't produce?

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

I think we've got to give them 3 years. However if Thomas doesn't grow up then I'd cut him in pre season. It's just not worth it to sit around and baby sit guys. This is pro football. I can understand it taking time to start producing on the field. But I don't want to hear anything about not knowing the plays, not knowing where to line up and running routes too short. Be a pro cause that's what you're paid to do.

Wow. Would you have cut Steve Smith after he got into a fight in the film room during his 2nd season? If so you would have cut one of the best WR in the league whose production hadn't yet emerged. Some of you guys really need to eat some reality soup and get a clue. It takes some guys time to develop and yes, to learn how to be a professional! My God, give people a chance to grow into their careers before talking about cutting them in the preseason. SMH.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

Wow. Would you have cut Steve Smith after he got into a fight in the film room during his 2nd season? If so you would have cut one of the best WR in the league whose production hadn't yet emerged. Some of you guys really need to eat some reality soup and get a clue. It takes some guys time to develop and yes, to learn how to be a professional! My God, give people a chance to grow into their careers before talking about cutting them in the preseason. SMH.

Very good post, your points are a good response to people that are obviously clueless about the development of a young player. Everyone wants results right away. It's funny how folks in here say the line "we must build through the draft" when you pull their strings, yet they get impatient when building through the draft takes longer than a season.

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

Very good post, your points are a good response to people that are obviously clueless about the development of a young player. Everyone wants results right away. It's funny how folks in here say the line "we must build through the draft" when you pull their strings, yet they get impatient when building through the draft takes longer than a season.

You pointed out the ultimate irony! For all of the whining about wanting to build thru the draft how many would be willing to live with 4-12, 6-10, 8-8 while the draft classes come into their own to become a consistent 10-6, 12-4 type team? The FO 'built thru the draft' last year and got ripped all year for the draft picks not becoming Hall of Famers out of the gate. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Vinny guy, but it's frustrating to hear the constant whining and complaining regardless of which direction we go. So ridiculous.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

Wow. Would you have cut Steve Smith after he got into a fight in the film room during his 2nd season? If so you would have cut one of the best WR in the league whose production hadn't yet emerged. Some of you guys really need to eat some reality soup and get a clue. It takes some guys time to develop and yes, to learn how to be a professional! My God, give people a chance to grow into their careers before talking about cutting them in the preseason. SMH.

Well, DT was never an established college talent, which is where he gets a different standard for us than Kelly, who had two great years at Oklahoma after contributing significantly as a freshman. Thomas never once entered a season as Michigan State's go to receiver. So there was no book on how he could deal with adversity -- he had never faced any.

So unlike Kelly, Thomas has to prove to US that he belongs in the NFL. His rookie year was more evidence to the contrary that he's likely not an NFL skilled receiver. Kelly on the other hand has to prove he can stay healthy. If he can do that for us, we appear more than willing to wait for his development.

It's conceivable that DT is simply not the player we thought we drafted AND that Malcolm Kelly's injury history is too much to overcome. That's a very real possibility for us. Fred Davis, though, seems to be well on his way to NFL competency with no real red flags.

I'm optimistic but realistic on Kelly. On Thomas, I'm just realistic.

[Ijaeger]

I expect Malcom to do great things for us and I can see Devin making some absolutely jaw dropping catches, and I expect for them to start showing flashes this year. However, expectations are like wishes and we all know what the outcome is when you wish in one hand and sh*t in the other. They are both capable of being good ball players and they most likely will be. The ultimate question is whether or not it will be in Washington, because after this season- no producee-no playee and back to trading away draft picks for over the hill players who will never play the same for us as their former team. (even though we seem to be shying away from that "been there, tried that" strategy) But I put nothing past the FO...nothing. Hopefully they will just work out for us.

[Lotus]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Well, DT was never an established college talent, which is where he gets a different standard for us than Kelly, who had two great years at Oklahoma after contributing significantly as a freshman. Thomas never once entered a season as Michigan State's go to receiver. So there was no book on how he could deal with adversity -- he had never faced any.

So unlike Kelly, Thomas has to prove to US that he belongs in the NFL. His rookie year was more evidence to the contrary that he's likely not an NFL skilled receiver. Kelly on the other hand has to prove he can stay healthy. If he can do that for us, we appear more than willing to wait for his development.

It's conceivable that DT is simply not the player we thought we drafted AND that Malcolm Kelly's injury history is too much to overcome. That's a very real possibility for us. Fred Davis, though, seems to be well on his way to NFL competency with no real red flags.

I'm optimistic but realistic on Kelly. On Thomas, I'm just realistic.

Don't forget that, for all of the reasons you mentioned, we should expect Thomas to have growing pains. For all of the reasons you mentioned, it would be foolish to expect Thomas to be a tiger out of the gate.

He came out of college early. His peers are still going to frat parties every weekend. He has growing up to do.

I'm not saying he will be a star. But if he is to become a star, we likely should expect the situation with him to be as it has been.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Lotus

Don't forget that, for all of the reasons you mentioned, we should expect Thomas to have growing pains. For all of the reasons you mentioned, it would be foolish to expect Thomas to be a tiger out of the gate.

He came out of college early. His peers are still going to frat parties every weekend. He has growing up to do.

I'm not saying he will be a star. But if he is to become a star, we likely should expect the situation with him to be as it has been.

Understood, of course, and I certainly can't dispute anything you've said.

But I do think that makes significant progress this year all the more critical than say Malcolm Kelly. Devin Thomas smelled like a bust pre-draft 2008. He didn't "smell" right. Last season, he "looked" like a guy who simply was overwhelmed by the game.

This year, he's going to play. And the thread title has to do with how long we keep him. So if he looks like a bust, smells like a bust, and this year, he plays like a bust...I think the answer is, we don't keep him any longer.

If he looks and smells like a bust, but shows a few signs of development this season...well, now it's a lot more complicated. Because he is still likely a bust...but you don't want to cut him loose only to have him breakout with a different team. So with even minor improvement, he gets a third year.

Malcolm Kelly is different. His first year is totally written off to injury, IMO. Gone. So if he has a meh year, but stays healthy, he gets a third season. If he's hamstrung by injuries again this year which limit his production, I'd still give him a third year, but I'd definately lower the ultimate expectation.

My general philosophy is that it's better to cut a player one year early than one year too late, but being incorrect on a young player can have huge consequences, so you've just got to be right as soon as possible. Given the rookie years, this duo has not earned the benefit of the doubt. Somebody needs to bring the results right now.

[Lotus]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Understood, of course, and I certainly can't dispute anything you've said.

But I do think that makes significant progress this year all the more critical than say Malcolm Kelly. Devin Thomas smelled like a bust pre-draft 2008. He didn't "smell" right. Last season, he "looked" like a guy who simply was overwhelmed by the game.

This year, he's going to play. And the thread title has to do with how long we keep him. So if he looks like a bust, smells like a bust, and this year, he plays like a bust...I think the answer is, we don't keep him any longer.

If he looks and smells like a bust, but shows a few signs of development this season...well, now it's a lot more complicated. Because he is still likely a bust...but you don't want to cut him loose only to have him breakout with a different team. So with even minor improvement, he gets a third year.

Malcolm Kelly is different. His first year is totally written off to injury, IMO. Gone. So if he has a meh year, but stays healthy, he gets a third season. If he's hamstrung by injuries again this year which limit his production, I'd still give him a third year, but I'd definately lower the ultimate expectation.

My general philosophy is that it's better to cut a player one year early than one year too late, but being incorrect on a young player can have huge consequences, so you've just got to be right as soon as possible. Given the rookie years, this duo has not earned the benefit of the doubt. Somebody needs to bring the results right now.

You are correct about Devin Thomas appearing to be overwhelmed last year. You are also correct that he needs to show more than last year. My argument was that he needs growing time - well, he needs to show he has grown up somewhat. He can't be the same clueless, nonworking bonehead that he was last year.

He has so much raw talent that I hold out hope.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

You pointed out the ultimate irony! For all of the whining about wanting to build thru the draft how many would be willing to live with 4-12, 6-10, 8-8 while the draft classes come into their own to become a consistent 10-6, 12-4 type team? The FO 'built thru the draft' last year and got ripped all year for the draft picks not becoming Hall of Famers out of the gate. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Vinny guy, but it's frustrating to hear the constant whining and complaining regardless of which direction we go. So ridiculous.

And then when we get involved in free agency, we don't get involved enough. We signed Haynesworth and Dockery? Well, what about Bodden, Canty, Brown, Willis, Bernard, Lechler, Asomugha, why didn't we get all those guys too????

But that's what fans are I guess....crazy, ridiculous, fanatics. The key is for the Front Office not to act like fans and we'll be fine

[KLHJ2]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

And then when we get involved in free agency, we don't get involved enough. We signed Haynesworth and Dockery? Well, what about Bodden, Canty, Brown, Willis, Bernard, Lechler, Asomugha, why didn't we get all those guys too????

But that's what fans are I guess....crazy, ridiculous, fanatics. The key is for the Front Office not to act like fans and we'll be fine

The reason is because we gave up draft picks for Jason Taylor. Now we have more needs than picks. To remain competative this year we had to make some moves in FA and I can understand why some fans are upset. It would seem as if we had not addressed enough needs yet through FA.

If the FO didn't want to be scrutinized then they should not have given away multiple draft picks for a player that they might only get 2 seasons out of (we got 1 BTW). They shouldn't have wasted a Draft pick on a punter when there were still quality LB's left in the draft. They should have picked up at least 1 DE instead of two WR's and a TE. Hell, I am sure that we could have squeezed in another Olineman too. We had 10 picks (at one point) last year and addressed 2 basic positions (Pass catcher and Safety). Sprinkle in a OG, QB, and P and walla...we didn't do squat. Then we give away 2 picks in the same year for a guy that lasts one. It crippled us. We needed a big FA period this season... and no they haven't done enough.

And you guys think that the FO is damned if they do, or damned if they don't? Get real, they keep putting the team in bad situations with bad decisions. The one time that they had a good situation, they screwed it up big time.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

And then when we get involved in free agency, we don't get involved enough. We signed Haynesworth and Dockery? Well, what about Bodden, Canty, Brown, Willis, Bernard, Lechler, Asomugha, why didn't we get all those guys too????

But that's what fans are I guess....crazy, ridiculous, fanatics. The key is for the Front Office not to act like fans and we'll be fine

Everyone thinks they can run the team better than the people actually doing it. You can hear it all day on NFL radio, people calling up with the most absurd takes and trade scenarios. I honestly don't know how the hosts of those shows take some of those calls with a straight face.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by Angry

The reason is because we gave up draft picks for Jason Taylor. Now we have more needs than picks. To remain competative this year we had to make some moves in FA and I can understand why some fans are upset. It would seem as if we had not addressed enough needs yet through FA.

If the FO didn't want to be scrutinized then they should not have given away multiple draft picks for a player that they might only get 2 seasons out of (we got 1 BTW). They shouldn't have wasted a Draft pick on a punter when there were still quality LB's left in the draft. They should have picked up at least 1 DE instead of two WR's and a TE. Hell, I am sure that we could have squeezed in another Olineman too. We had 10 picks (at one point) last year and addressed 2 basic positions (Pass catcher and Safety). Sprinkle in a OG, QB, and P and walla...we didn't do squat. Then we give away 2 picks in the same year for a guy that lasts one. It crippled us. We needed a big FA period this season... and no they haven't done enough.

And you guys think that the FO is damned if they do, or damned if they don't? Get real, they keep putting the team in bad situations with bad decisions. The one time that they had a good situation, they screwed it up big time.

The FO is damned if they do or damned if they don't. As Matty said, everyone thinks they can run the team better. All FOs are going to make bad decisions, and all teams are not going to be able to address everything or have quality starters at every single position. Even the mighty NE Patriots just gave up a 4th rounder for a guy (Greg Lewis) that's at best the 3rd best wideout, had mediocre numbers last season, and is pushing 30 yrs. old.

Now I think you're bringing up an issue (giving up picks for Taylor) that has nothing to do with what's being discussed. Yes, giving up a two draft picks (well I think of it as one pick, b/c the other pick is not that valuable) for Jason Taylor was a mistake, big deal, get over it, complaining about it is not going to bring those two picks back. The issue at hand is that people are complaining that our two WRs did not have Pro Bowl stats in their first year. Which is ridiculous to expect this, given that most players need time to develop. My whole point is, if you mention the words "let's build through the draft" don't turn around and rant that Kelly and Thomas need to be cut b/c they didn't produce their first year.

[Monkeydad]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

The FO is damned if they do or damned if they don't. As Matty said, everyone thinks they can run the team better. All FOs are going to make bad decisions, and all teams are not going to be able to address everything or have quality starters at every single position. Even the mighty NE Patriots just gave up a 4th rounder for a guy (Greg Lewis) that's at best the 3rd best wideout, had mediocre numbers last season, and is pushing 30 yrs. old.

Now I think you're bringing up an issue (giving up picks for Taylor) that has nothing to do with what's being discussed. Yes, giving up a two draft picks (well I think of it as one pick, b/c the other pick is not that valuable) for Jason Taylor was a mistake, big deal, get over it, complaining about it is not going to bring those two picks back. The issue at hand is that people are complaining that our two WRs did not have Pro Bowl stats in their first year. Which is ridiculous to expect this, given that most players need time to develop. My whole point is, if you mention the words "let's build through the draft" don't turn around and rant that Kelly and Thomas need to be cut b/c they didn't produce their first year.

Great post. I agree completely.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Angry

The reason is because we gave up draft picks for Jason Taylor. Now we have more needs than picks. To remain competative this year we had to make some moves in FA and I can understand why some fans are upset. It would seem as if we had not addressed enough needs yet through FA.

If the FO didn't want to be scrutinized then they should not have given away multiple draft picks for a player that they might only get 2 seasons out of (we got 1 BTW). They shouldn't have wasted a Draft pick on a punter when there were still quality LB's left in the draft. They should have picked up at least 1 DE instead of two WR's and a TE. Hell, I am sure that we could have squeezed in another Olineman too. We had 10 picks (at one point) last year and addressed 2 basic positions (Pass catcher and Safety). Sprinkle in a OG, QB, and P and walla...we didn't do squat. Then we give away 2 picks in the same year for a guy that lasts one. It crippled us. We needed a big FA period this season... and no they haven't done enough.

And you guys think that the FO is damned if they do, or damned if they don't? Get real, they keep putting the team in bad situations with bad decisions. The one time that they had a good situation, they screwed it up big time.

I hear what you're saying, but we only need to do a lot more if we're planning on winning it all this year. And yes, we'd all like that but to FRPLG's point maybe the fans should think more long term as opposed to the immediate here and now.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Everyone thinks they can run the team better than the people actually doing it. You can hear it all day on NFL radio, people calling up with the most absurd takes and trade scenarios. I honestly don't know how the hosts of those shows take some of those calls with a straight face.

Who was it here yesterday that said the Redskins would be perennially in the playoffs if the front office just listened to the fans? That was funny. So let's see Colt starts at QB, Mix and McMullen at wideout, two backs with Mason and McCullough, we'll trade down then up back down again to get 8 picks from 3 different teams in the 2nd round, hire a "real GM" of course...